One-*** efficacy questions

[gregmcateer]

I actually have no idea why we are even thinking of vaccinating under 40's unless they request it. We actually need the virus to circulate in the young and healthy it is better in the longer term

Genuine question, not attempt to argue with either side:
do we NEED the virus to circulate amongst the young? Doesn't vaccination achieve immunity for them as, or more effectively, but without X (insert percentage here), getting ill, or have I missed the point?

 

[RobinBHM]

We have known since March 2020 the profiles of who its most likely to affect badly. And in March 2020 Covid was everywhere yet the pretence is that everyone is vulnerable. They are not

For somebody so opinionated, you certainly have huge gaps in your Covid knowledge.

Oh by the way, there is no "pretence that everyone is vulnerable"......you certainly love a strawman logical fallacy

 

[hairy]

I have become quite a fan of Ivor Cummins. Some of his YT presentations put some big question marks over what is happening now, as do some of his knowledgable even esteemed but it seems not so mainstream guests.

 

[hairy]

Surely your immune system is what gives you immunity? If it's not performing well due to underlying conditions then it may need a boost via a vaccine.

 

[Rorschach]

Ironic that myself and others are just promoting what was the standard procedure and advice just over a year ago but thanks to propaganda we are now called dangerous by those we see as dangerous.

 

[RobinBHM]

Ironic that myself and others are just promoting what was the standard procedure and advice just over a year ago but thanks to propaganda we are now called dangerous by those we see as dangerous.

You claim "Covid is no worse than flu" that wasn't the advice a year ago.
You claim lockdowns don't work, that also wasn't the advice a year ago
You claim herd immunity is the solution, that also wasnt the advice a year ago

It's true mask wearing wasn't recommended a year ago, but the data wasn't available, now it is, you refuse to accept it.

I'm not entirely sure what is you are promoting that was standard advice a year ago.........

 

[RobinBHM]

Genuine question, not attempt to argue with either side:
do we NEED the virus to circulate amongst the young? Doesn't vaccination achieve immunity for them as, or more effectively, but without X (insert percentage here), getting ill, or have I missed the point?

The vaccine gives much higher antibodies than natural immunity and has more resistance to variants.

The best way to get back to having no restrictions is to vaccinate everybody over 18.

 

[Selwyn]

You claim "Covid is no worse than flu" that wasn't the advice a year ago.
You claim lockdowns don't work, that also wasn't the advice a year ago
You claim herd immunity is the solution, that also wasnt the advice a year ago

It's true mask wearing wasn't recommended a year ago, but the data wasn't available, now it is, you refuse to accept it.

I'm not entirely sure what is you are promoting that was standard advice a year ago.........

Covid is a little bit worse than flu. But it is not worse than flu for those who don't get affected by covid which are an awful lot of people. Its not statistically far off a very bad flu. But again we have recorded a lot of covid deaths with comorbidities and tested the hell out of people in a way we wouldn't with influenza.
Lockdowns still don't work and whats more they fail to take into the account of the collateral damage which is significant. Massive actually. You've never given that a second thought.
Herd Immmunity is inevitable although the vaccine will help those with weakned immune systems to not get killed by covid.
Masks don't work because on a practical level they just don't. Frequently dirty, reused, not fitting, round chins etc. They do nothing on a practical level and this is evidenced by real world data of mask vs non mask places

There was no need to try and reinvent covid into what it is not

 

[Selwyn]

The vaccine gives much higher antibodies than natural immunity and has more resistance to variants.

The best way to get back to having no restrictions is to vaccinate everybody over 18.

This is not proven. It assists those with less well functioning immune systems but for those who's immune system is working well it is total overkill. It may even be counterproductive long term. Why aged 18? Why stop there? Do you have any idea how many virus' a new born baby is exposed to within the first few weeks of its life?

 

[Rorschach]

The vaccine gives much higher antibodies than natural immunity and has more resistance to variants.

The best way to get back to having no restrictions is to vaccinate everybody over 18.

Actually natural infection is more effective than vaccination for immunity.

 

[alanpo68]

Actually natural infection is more effective than vaccination for immunity.

The slight issue that you seem to have missed is that natural infection has killed millions of people.

 

[Rorschach]

The slight issue that you seem to have missed is that natural infection has killed millions of people.

Well assuming you survive of course, which over 99% do.

 

[RobinBHM]

Actually natural infection is more effective than vaccination for immunity.

How sure are you?

Immune Response From mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Is More Robust Than Natural Infection
https://www.contagionlive.com/view/...accines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection

Vaccines are capable of stimulating a better immune response than the natural infection
https://www.immunology.org/news/immunity-and-covid-19-what-do-we-know-so-far
Four studies all show superior protection against variants from vaccines
https://www.businessinsider.com/fau...than-natural-infection-alone-2021-5?r=US&IR=T

 

[Jonm]

You claim "Covid is no worse than flu" that wasn't the advice a year ago.
You claim lockdowns don't work, that also wasn't the advice a year ago
You claim herd immunity is the solution, that also wasnt the advice a year ago

It's true mask wearing wasn't recommended a year ago, but the data wasn't available, now it is, you refuse to accept it.

I'm not entirely sure what is you are promoting that was standard advice a year ago.........

To be fair to Rorschach he did say a little over a year ago. I had a look at what the government was advising and when, prior to lockdown.

26 feb 2020
Statement on Coronavirus
Matt Hancock MP, continued:
"We have a clear four part plan to respond to the outbreak of this disease: contain, delay, research and mitigate. We're taking all necessary measures to minimise the risk to the public.

BBC news 9 March 2020
Coronavirus: UK to remain in 'containment' phase of response
However, measures to delay the virus' spread with "social distancing" will not be introduced yet, ministers said.

16 March 2020
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-statement-on-coronavirus-16-march-2020Advice to stop non essential travel, work from home if possible, avoid pubs, clubs etc.

20:March 2020, lockdown.

 

[RobinBHM]

Well assuming you survive of course, which over 99% do.

One million people may have something to say about that......

Long Covid: More than a million affected in February, survey suggests

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56601911



Over 75% of People Hospitalized With COVID-19 Had Symptoms 6 Month Later
https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ized-with-covid-19-have-symptoms-months-later


In the early days of the pandemic, there was a perception that for the majority of people COVID-19 was a short, relatively mild illness lasting less than a fortnight, with most research focused on the much smaller proportion of patients falling seriously or fatally ill.

However, in recent months we’ve seen increasing attention paid to people with ‘long COVID’, whose symptoms were not serious enough to land them in hospital yet have persisted for many weeks or months.
https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/long-covid

 

[RobinBHM]

I had a look at what the government was advising and when, prior to lockdown

That advice didn't age well.....

Professor Spector, who works in genetic epidemiology research, said:"Two weeks after the Cheltenham Festival and the Liverpool game against Atletico Madrid, we saw the number of people reporting COVID symptoms in the COVID Symptom Study app from those particular areas increase and both areas became key hotspots in the UK.

"This suggests that both events were, in part, a cause for the spread of COVID-19 in those areas."
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...drid-led-to-spike-in-covid-19-deaths-11994875

Thank goodness the government and its scientific advisors got with the programme not longer after.

 

[Ozi]

Well it's the cause of death really. I am not saying the UK government is under or over reporting the raw figures for deaths (all causes) but I think they are being a bit dodgy with their figures on cause of death and especially with the modelling figures they use/used in their briefings.
I think it is very disingenuous to say X countries figures are misleading but the UK is perfect, all governments have an agenda and are not beyond lying to the populous.

A simple of example of this for the UK is that we are constantly given the 127k deaths figure saying they died "in the past year", this is indeed true (near enough a year anyway) but without the context that it covers two winter respiratory seasons. This 127k figure is then compared against a yearly mortality of approx 600k, but again, that 600k isn't spread out evenly over a year so if you took a year that had two winter respiratory virus seasons added together it would be much higher than 600k. So while the figures they tell us are more or less correct, they are being massaged and used in a way that is misleading in order to generate maximum fear and impact.

Not looking for a fight here. The figures are never absolute, I tend to believe that in this country we get reasonably accurate figures but that they are often spun to a political agenda. The reported figures for the last flu season are really interesting, almost zero deaths in hospital with flu as the only cause is unheard of. We can argue about the accuracy but it's a certainty that flu deaths were down dramatically. The why is what matters, some who would have died were already dead, some were isolating so never caught it, some like me had the flu *** for the first time ever, a massive increase in vaccination so we didn't die of it or spread it. It's proof that for flu at least lock down and vaccination worked. Interestingly and I'm not trying to extrapolate one case into nationally significant figures my friend caught covid early on and spent 28 days in intensive care, very lucky to be alive yet tested negative at the time for the disease but later at discharge positive for the antibodies. If Chris had died he would not have counted in the national total. As I said the figures can never be precise.

 

[RobinBHM]

To be fair to Rorschach he did say a little over a year ago. I had a look at what the government was advising and when, prior to lockdown

Looking back at those announcements....seems a lifetime ago.

Goodness me what a year its been.

I can remember watching the news around new year 2020 talking about Wuhan....I just watched it, like you do - idly thinking it was another of those Asian viruses, nothing to do with me.

Even when the first case was announced in UK, it never occurred to me what was to come.

 

[RobinBHM]

The figures are never absolute

Pretty much all of the scientific data surrounding Covid pandemic is not precise, nor can it be.

Science is often not black and white, we can only draw conclusions by looking at many sources and seeing where the bulk of the evidence lies.

Politics and govt messaging muddies the water a great deal. Govts have tended to emphasise the negative to encourage the public to, stick to the rules.

 

[John Brown]

Terry - the existing vaccines are effective against Covid 19. This has already been demonstrated - not least because these "variants" which seem to come through thick and fast - kent ,south african, brazilian etc are so similar to each other. They don't evolve much at all.

The whole Indian variant thing in the UK is pushed because of a. the suspicion that pockets of asians are reluctant to take the vaccine and b. the vaccine take up in the Uk is not as high as is suggested. I actually have no idea why we are even thinking of vaccinating under 40's unless they request it. We actually need the virus to circulate in the young and healthy it is better in the longer term

Remember the most vulnerable were vaccinated long ago so really its all about keeping the narrative going now.

Australia will eventually get some Covid 19. Its absolutely inevitable.

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand why we need the virus to circulate in the young and healthy. Doesn't a larger pool make for more chance of new variants evolving?