One-*** efficacy questions

[alanpo68]

Wrong.

It isn't wrong, that is why people who have already been infected are still being vaccinated.

Immune Response From mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Is More Robust Than Natural Infection

After the second dose of the vaccine, antibody titers were up to 10 times higher than those of patients who had recovered from natural COVID-19 infection, suggesting that even those with prior exposure could benefit from vaccination.

 

[alanpo68]

my niece, an NHS radiographer spent almost all of January this year doing CT scans of Covid patients....people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60's etc, She said the patients all had nasty pneumonia spots on their lungs, many were really ill and pretty much all of them that were in acute wards ended up with long term Covid.

January would have been people who were infected when Boris decided to take Xmas off from fighting COVID. A disastrous move that led to us going back in to lockdown.

The terrifying part is that without the lockdowns then some of those people who suffered with pneumonia spots would have died because the NHS would have been overwhelmed.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I see we are still all entrenched in our positions. It could be fun to have a look at the following:

https://johnmenadue.com/who-had-covid-first/
This is interesting: rather than China developing/creating/releasing Covid19, they may actually have been one of the very last countries to be infected. It would appear, according to the article, that the USA had its first infections in 2015. China's big mistake was to actually isolate and identify it -because of SARS they are somewhat more motivated to look for new, novel viruses.

The number of infections or deaths may therefore be related to how early the virus arrived in the country, rather than which lockdown policy or double mask theory is followed. I know some people like to blame whichever politician is deemed to be of the wrong shape, color or variety, but maths tends to trump politics, mostly.

This may also back up the theory: Coronavirus traces found in March 2019 sewage sample, Spanish study shows

 

[RobinBHM]

January would have been people who were infected when Boris decided to take Xmas off from fighting COVID. A disastrous move that led to us going back in to lockdown.

The terrifying part is that without the lockdowns then some of those people who suffered with pneumonia spots would have died because the NHS would have been overwhelmed.

Lockdown sceptics always like to use the "only a tiny percentage of people die and they are elderly" argument....which conveniently ignores the overloaded hospitals and the 1 million suffering long Covid.

It can be nasty for a wide age range - my niece said many of the people she saw were gasping for breath and scared. In mid Jan they were certainly not just the really elderly.

My niece knows colleagues unable to work full time due to Covid damage and she says some of the newly qualified staff have had to take time off due to stress.....so it's frustrating when people trivialise it, with their "no worse than flu" claims.

 

[RobinBHM]

I see we are still all entrenched in our positions. It could be fun to have a look at the following:

https://johnmenadue.com/who-had-covid-first/
This is interesting: rather than China developing/creating/releasing Covid19, they may actually have been one of the very last countries to be infected. It would appear, according to the article, that the USA had its first infections in 2015. China's big mistake was to actually isolate and identify it -because of SARS they are somewhat more motivated to look for new, novel viruses.

The number of infections or deaths may therefore be related to how early the virus arrived in the country, rather than which lockdown policy or double mask theory is followed. I know some people like to blame whichever politician is deemed to be of the wrong shape, color or variety, but maths tends to trump politics, mostly.

This may also back up the theory: Coronavirus traces found in March 2019 sewage sample, Spanish study shows

So that would be the same Dr Francis who strongly recommends people who've had Covid to still have the vaccine.

 

[RobinBHM]

may

Not

 

[Jonm]

It opens up the ability for Covid sceptics to interpret the date to fit their argument.

The reality is assigning primary cause of death is difficult and thus death rate metrics have to be considered along with other metrics to build a true picture of a pandemic.

In any case, death rates don't consider long term health problems for Covid sufferers.

I looked at the ONS website
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...s/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#health
it contains this graph

The main thing this shows is the number of excess deaths when compared to the average of the previous 5 years, 2015 to 2019 inclusive.

It also indicates that in the first wave there was under reporting of Covid deaths and various reasons have been given, including the shortage of Covid testing capacity. In the second wave it looks like over reporting of Covid deaths to me, possibly due to people having a positive covid result but it not actually contributing to a death. But this is a simplistic view, I suspect the reality is far more complicated.
Main point is as I stated above, there were a lot of excess deaths, April last year the weekly death rate doubled.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

So that would be the same Dr Francis who strongly recommends people who've had Covid to still have the vaccine.

I'm sorry, but now you've got me confused. You said half a dozen posts earlier that the vaccine gives better protection than actually having the disease. If this is the case, then surely having the vaccine even if you have had the virus is as good thing. Boris did it, so it must be sensible!

Is your somewhat snide response a suggestion that Dr Francis is wrong? Or completely correct, which means everything he says is gospel?

To quote Tom Hanks in "Big": "I don't get it".

 

[Selwyn]

Not better than the vaccine.

The evidence proves it.

The vast majority of people don't get the virus.

Of those who do the vast majority of people don't notice

Of those who notice the vast majority don't get very ill

Of those who get ill the majority don't go to hospital

Of those who go to hospital the majority survive

Of those who survive the majority don't get long covid

The majority of of those who die are very old, largely with other morbidities.

These are the statistics. Look at the "cases" vs "deaths"

 

[Selwyn]

January would have been people who were infected when Boris decided to take Xmas off from fighting COVID. A disastrous move that led to us going back in to lockdown.

The terrifying part is that without the lockdowns then some of those people who suffered with pneumonia spots would have died because the NHS would have been overwhelmed.

Or alternatively a virus that is now in the country and within the country is doing its rounds seasonally. You tell me where it the virus was last summer?

 

[Selwyn]

Lockdown sceptics always like to use the "only a tiny percentage of people die and they are elderly" argument....which conveniently ignores the overloaded hospitals and the 1 million suffering long Covid.

It can be nasty for a wide age range - my niece said many of the people she saw were gasping for breath and scared. In mid Jan they were certainly not just the really elderly.

My niece knows colleagues unable to work full time due to Covid damage and she says some of the newly qualified staff have had to take time off due to stress.....so it's frustrating when people trivialise it, with their "no worse than flu" claims.

I think your are exaggerating the numbers suffering from long covid massively. It is not unusual for people to suffer from post viral syndrome.

Its also a convenient tool to justify a never ending lockdown. Tim Spector's analysis was that 10% of sufferers (not cases- sufferers) had symptomns for a month and one or two percent for 3 months.

I actually felt rubbish for 9 days after my ***! Do we count that?

Stop the fearmongering

 

[RobinBHM]

I think your are exaggerating the numbers suffering from long covid massively. It is not unusual for people to suffer from post viral syndrome.

Its also a convenient tool to justify a never ending lockdown. Tim Spector's analysis was that 10% of sufferers (not cases- sufferers) had symptomns for a month and one or two percent for 3 months.

I actually felt rubbish for 9 days after my ***! Do we count that?

Stop the fearmongering

Selwyn, please contact your local NHS trust immediately and tell them they are wasting their time and merely fearmongering.

From the Standard, April 14th 2021:

"The NHS will set up a long Covid clinic in every area of England to treat the thousands of people suffering from the condition.
NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stevens said that people suffering from long-term after-effects after battling Covid-19 need a “clear front door” for treatment.
The NHS has already opened 63 long Covid clinics to try and offer help to people who have suffered for months after their infection.

There will be 83 clinics open by the end of the month."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-long-covid-clinic-england-every-area-b929710.html

 

[Selwyn]

Selwyn, please contact your local NHS trust immediately and tell them they are wasting their time and merely fearmongering.

From the Standard, April 14th 2021:

"The NHS will set up a long Covid clinic in every area of England to treat the thousands of people suffering from the condition.
NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stevens said that people suffering from long-term after-effects after battling Covid-19 need a “clear front door” for treatment.
The NHS has already opened 63 long Covid clinics to try and offer help to people who have suffered for months after their infection.

There will be 83 clinics open by the end of the month."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-long-covid-clinic-england-every-area-b929710.html

Well they've got 4.7 million people on the waiting list for other procedures. Post viral syndrome isn't unique to covid

And yes without a doubt the NHS have definitely been fearmongering over Covid. As are you. Do you realise virtually no one is dying of covid in the UK at the moment?

 

[alanpo68]

I think your are exaggerating the numbers suffering from long covid massively. It is not unusual for people to suffer from post viral syndrome.

Its also a convenient tool to justify a never ending lockdown. Tim Spector's analysis was that 10% of sufferers (not cases- sufferers) had symptomns for a month and one or two percent for 3 months.

I actually felt rubbish for 9 days after my ***! Do we count that?

Stop the fearmongering

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases


Over the four-week period ending 6 March 2021, an estimated 1.1 million people in private households in the UK reported experiencing long COVID (symptoms persisting more than four weeks after the first suspected coronavirus (COVID-19) episode that are not explained by something else).

 

[alanpo68]

Well they've got 4.7 million people on the waiting list for other procedures. Post viral syndrome isn't unique to covid

And yes without a doubt the NHS have definitely been fearmongering over Covid. As are you. Do you realise virtually no one is dying of covid in the UK at the moment?

It is almost as if things like lockdowns, social distancing and above all vaccinations have worked isn't it.

 

[alanpo68]

The vast majority of people don't get the virus.

Of those who do the vast majority of people don't notice

Of those who notice the vast majority don't get very ill

Of those who get ill the majority don't go to hospital

Of those who go to hospital the majority survive

Of those who survive the majority don't get long covid

The majority of of those who die are very old, largely with other morbidities.

These are the statistics. Look at the "cases" vs "deaths"

Amazing how you believe all of that but still had the vaccine. Do as I say not as I do.

 

[Rorschach]

It is almost as if things like lockdowns, social distancing and above all vaccinations have worked isn't it.

Except that regardless of NPI's the viral curve is unaffected.

 

[Rorschach]

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases


Over the four-week period ending 6 March 2021, an estimated 1.1 million people in private households in the UK reported experiencing long COVID (symptoms persisting more than four weeks after the first suspected coronavirus (COVID-19) episode that are not explained by something else).

But what are the symptoms? If 1.1 million people are suffering from a bit of fatigue or a loss of taste, is that really a big issue?
I suffered some kind of illness last year and had persistent symptoms for over 3 months but the symptoms were mild, didn't really affect my day to day activity, should I be making a fuss about that?

 

[alanpo68]

Except that regardless of NPI's the viral curve is unaffected.

The problem with that argument is that NPI's have practically eradicated the Flu season so must have had an effect on the transmission of COVID.

 

[alanpo68]

But what are the symptoms? If 1.1 million people are suffering from a bit of fatigue or a loss of taste, is that really a big issue?
I suffered some kind of illness last year and had persistent symptoms for over 3 months but the symptoms were mild, didn't really affect my day to day activity, should I be making a fuss about that?

The issue is that Long COVID is impacting huge numbers of people.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...coronaviruscovid19infectionintheuk/1april2021
Self-reported long COVID symptoms were adversely affecting the day-to-day activities of 674,000 people in private households in the UK, with 196,000 of these individuals reporting that their ability to undertake their day-to-day activities had been limited a lot.


Those are truly horrific numbers. When you consider that less than 10% of the population have so far contracted COVID then the fact that 320,000 have either died or have had their health severely impacted.