One-*** efficacy questions

[Ozi]

I probably won't be allowed to share it here. I am totally in favour of them having the choice by the way, would never tell someone to have or not have it if they want it. I was just curious as to their motivation.

Like wise I'm also in favour of choice, I prefer it to be informed choice. I also acknowledge that choice is a luxury that has it's limits. In our current situation compulsory vaccination would be wrong even if you believe as I do that if all people able to take the vaccine did so we as a society would be better off. Where would you draw that particular line. If this pandemic had been going to kill 1% of us, or 10%, if it was going to kill 20% but the vaccine killed 1%. However you value personal freedom I bet the would be a point where you would change your mind.

 

[Selwyn]

Sensible, measured man

 

[Selwyn]

Like wise I'm also in favour of choice, I prefer it to be informed choice. I also acknowledge that choice is a luxury that has it's limits. In our current situation compulsory vaccination would be wrong even if you believe as I do that if all people able to take the vaccine did so we as a society would be better off. Where would you draw that particular line. If this pandemic had been going to kill 1% of us, or 10%, if it was going to kill 20% but the vaccine killed 1%. However you value personal freedom I bet the would be a point where you would change your mind.

We know already its not even going to be anywhere near 1% of us. Its not even 1% of over 70's

As John Lee says the initial framing has never moved

 

[Rorschach]

Like wise I'm also in favour of choice, I prefer it to be informed choice. I also acknowledge that choice is a luxury that has it's limits. In our current situation compulsory vaccination would be wrong even if you believe as I do that if all people able to take the vaccine did so we as a society would be better off. Where would you draw that particular line. If this pandemic had been going to kill 1% of us, or 10%, if it was going to kill 20% but the vaccine killed 1%. However you value personal freedom I bet the would be a point where you would change your mind.

Absolutely, it's a not a black/white topic, I can only base my response on the situation as I see it now.

 

[Ozi]

That man didn't have a right to punch a policewoman in the head. He will be punished accordingly. But you can't lock a man up in case he "might" punch a policewoman in the head. Unless you are North Korea.

I would expect the Prime Minister to be somewhat removed from ordinary people by the very nature of the job. I'm not a bit concerned about £58k redecoration. The investigations into it all will cost more all footed by the taxpayer.

The reason the £58K concerns me and the reason I think the money to investigate it well spent is that he seems to think it's his right to spend money that's not his. Remember some of the things put on expenses not so long ago, this as ongoing and always will be it's human nature but needs to be challenged.

Also very glad I don't live in NK

 

[Selwyn]

The reason the £58K concerns me and the reason I think the money to investigate it well spent is that he seems to think it's his right to spend money that's not his. Remember some of the things put on expenses not so long ago, this as ongoing and always will be it's human nature but needs to be challenged.

Also very glad I don't live in NK

It wasn't tax payers money either. Storm in a teacup

 

[Ozi]

We know already its not even going to be anywhere near 1% of us. Its not even 1% of over 70's

I never suggested it was, my point is that there would be a level of danger that the average person would consider justified removal of personal freedom, thankfully we are nowhere near that

 

[Ozi]

It wasn't tax payers money either. Storm in a teacup

Or the thin end of a wedge - lets agree to disagree my workshop is calling me.

 

[Selwyn]

I never suggested it was, my point is that there would be a level of danger that the average person would consider justified removal of personal freedom, thankfully we are nowhere near that

Fair point you didn't.

We never were near that level of danger

 

[Blackswanwood]

Some years ago I told an Indian friend who's a doctor that I was thinking of going to India, hoping for some local knowledge and advice on places to visit. I got much the same reaction as D_W from his friend best summed up as why the hell would you do that! Went to New Zealand instead never regretted it.

New Zealand is a great place too. I don’t know what motivated your friend to say that but most educated Indian people are proud of their country (while recognising it’s shortcomings) and will give you a list of great places to visit and things to see.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Lets see how it plays out in 2-3 weeks time. They are currently having a viral spike although there is a lot of selective media around it, peoples behaiviour will change and the likelihood is it will peter out downwards again.

Hi Selwyn

What evidence do you have of selective media and which way do you feel it’s being selective - over estimating or down playing the seriousness of the position?

 

[Ozi]

New Zealand is a great place too. I don’t know what motivated your friend to say that but most educated Indian people are proud of their country (while recognising it’s shortcomings) and will give you a list of great places to visit and things to see.

I think the fact he grew up in a very poor area didn't help, have to admire his family, they somehow put their oldest son through school then each child in turn supported the rest, they are a family of ten and all qualified in one profession or another. Now scattered around the world but the two I know are the sort of people that if a friend needs a hand you don't have to ask twice.

 

[Selwyn]

Hi Selwyn

What evidence do you have of selective media and which way do you feel it’s being selective - over estimating or down playing the seriousness of the position?

Deaths per 1000 for a very start. Its already slowing there

 

[RobinBHM]

Do we actually know how many people died because of Covid, rather than with Covid?
"Anyone dying within 28 days of a positive test".
I get really fed up with the "wise after the event" brigade.
How many people reading this have ever had to make decisions on the scale that Govts around the World have had to this past year?

Yes the details are on the ONS site.

Deaths involving Covid 133k
Deaths due to Covid 120k

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/tran...fapositivecovid19testwhodiedsolelyfromcovid19

 

[RobinBHM]

The data is pretty solid now. Covid is not at all likely to increase "exponentially". There is evidence all over the world to show this now. It will ebb and flow

1 "the data is pretty solid now" sorry, that's wrong.

2. "Covid is not at all likely to increase exponentially" I never said was

3. "There is evidence all over the world to show this now, it will ebb and flow" ah but without NPIs the peaks would be far far higher.


The data is pretty solid now: NPIs are effective.

 

[RobinBHM]

I'm not a bit concerned about £58k redecoration. The investigations into it all will cost more all footed by the taxpayer

Cost is not the key issue.

 

[Selwyn]

1 "the data is pretty solid now" sorry, that's wrong.

2. "Covid is not at all likely to increase exponentially" I never said was

3. "There is evidence all over the world to show this now, it will ebb and flow" ah but without NPIs the peaks would be far far higher.


The data is pretty solid now: NPIs are effective.

No they aren't. Have you watched the John Lee video - do you know how silly masks and social distancing sound?

 

[Selwyn]

Cost is not the key issue.

In this context it is.

Everyone lies. This is a minor issue, come polling day it won't reflect at all

 

[RobinBHM]

Remember, asymptomatic transmission is still highly theoretical and has not actually been proven to exist with Covid.

I am sorry but the evidence does say otherwise:

"Under a broad range of values for each of these assumptions, at least 50% of new SARS-CoV-2 infections was estimated to have originated from exposure to individuals with infection but without symptoms"
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...ferral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_term=010721
"We strongly believe that the rapid spread of the second wave of Covid-19 is linked to the circulation of the asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic subjects in post-lockdown settings"
https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-021-02762-0

 

[Chris152]