RogerS
Established Member
Rather than clutter up the other thread on buying a house and over-charging solicitors (as in Steve's case) thought folk might be interested to hear of my own experiences.
Caveat - procedures might well have changed since the events I am about to unfold took place but I suspect the principles remain the same and...I'm pretty sure you can't take solicitors to the small claims court for over-charging.
Time and place....mid 1970's. Me and a co-director ran a small computer manufacturing company. One of our dealers defaulted owing us £10k...a lot of money now and even more so back then. We were pretty naive when it came to taking anyone to court (we had a personal guarantee from the dealer). Naive enough to use our country-hick solicitors to take the dealer to court. The dealer knew every trick in the book for prevaricating and ran rings around our solicitors. We never even considered dumping them. Eventually and after a long long time, all the available avenues had been exhausted and the dealer agreed to stage payments of £1k at a time. The first payment came and our solicitors grabbed the lot which we thought excessive particularly as the bill was not broken down into itemised amounts. The dealer also defaulted on the next payment and so we knew that we would need to return to the courts.
So we complained to The Law Society who gave us a list of three London Fetter Lane big boys to choose from to act on our behalf both against our first solicitor and also the dealer. They wrote to our country hick solicitors who immediately capitulated and refunded us around £700. Bit of a result.
The new solicitors (Grabit'n'Run) being street-wise soon got the dealer pinned down. Small bills came from the solicitors that were eminently reasonable particularly in view of the success that they were having with the new case against the dealer. Instalments restarted and everything quietened down. Until.
The Taxing Master
Until about three months later, we got a bill out of the blue from the London solicitors. Which was for quite a lot of money and which we naturally queried. They pushed back and so we were faced with taking things to the next level which was to go in front of the Taxing Master at Lincoln's Inn Fields. I say 'we' but actually by this time it was 'I' as my co-director had wearied of the whole thing and I had bought his share of the debt.
I duly arrived not really knowing what to expect. Waiting outside was a costing clerk from the solicitors. We entered into one of the (then) most intimidating legal environments that I have ever been in. Huge oak-panelled room, massive oak desk on the other side of which 8 feet away from us and wearing Mr Micawber type glasses scowled The Taxing Master. Believe me, to this mid-twenties commercially and legally naive soul it was intimidating. He glowered at the Costing Clerk and bellowed 'Well, Mr S, what is your problem'? 'Ooh, I thought... a racist Taxing Master'.. as the costing clerk was Indian.
I quietly pointed out that it was me and that I thought that Grab'it'n'Run had overcharged me (I refrained from adding that given the sole reason for appointing Grabit was because the previous solicitors had over-charged, I thought it pretty dumb of Grabit to also try it on). The Taxing Master asked if I had received a detailed itemised breakdown of their charges. I had not. Literally snarling at the Costing Clerk, he asked him 'Why hadn't Mr S received the breakdown?'. Answer came there none. I was then faced with two choices. Come back another day (which would involve train fares etc) or spend 30 minutes going through the Costing Clerk's files. I reckoned that if I couldn't find some dirt in those files then I shouldn't have even been there.
Rules of the Game
The rules of the game are very simple. If you can persuade the Taxing Master to deduct at least 15% (or so it was then) off the bill then you don't have to pay any additional fees incurred by Grabit'nm'Run in preparing for and attending the Taxing Master ...and you win. If not then you lose and pay the fees incurred by Grabit in sending their clerk along. The costs charged are based on three things...
(1) Telephone calls in/out to the solicitor
(2) Letters in/out
(3) Time spent by legal people including any partners of the firm
I didn't really have an issue with (1) and (2) because (a) my own record keeping was rubbish so I couldn't prove these one way or the other and (b) the amount was pretty small. But (3) looked to be the way in as I soon realised what had happened. It happens in many so-called professional organisations such as solicitors and management consultants. Anyone short on billable earnings will 'invent' some work that they carried out and bill it to unsuspecting clients. Looking through the breakdown and focusing on the hours billed against names I discovered several names that not only did I not recognise but there was no documentary evidence in the way of supporting material to backup the claim for hours worked. Other names had worked on the case, had been billed for at the time that they did the work...usually some many months long ago...and that there was nothing to justify their latest billing.
My thirty minutes were up and we went into battle. I accepted (1) and (2) and then queried the first billable hours. "What had they done for this time?". "Where was the proof?".
"Well" growled the Taxing Master. The costing clerk frantically scrabbled through his file. "There is none, Sir" he replied. "Right..strike that out...next" said the TM.
And so we went on. I accepted a few that I felt were legitimate but most of the others the taxing master either struck out or reduced by 50%. Even the partner's time! Well over the 15% I was cooking ! We finally got to the end and I had had my bill reduced by about 60%. I was on a roll!
The taxing master asked me if there was anything else I'd like to claim? I reached across to make a grab for the costing clerks files as I was convinced that I could uncover some more fiddling. I was frozen in my tracks as the Taxing Master gave me a withering look and asked me "And just exactly what do you think you are doing, Mr S ? Those files belong to Grabit'n'Run. "
I was just about to blurt out that Grabit'n'Run were a load of thieving shysters when the cautionary little man on my shoulder...you know, the one who cautions you and who you ignore at your peril....said 'Stop. Where are you? Think Slander'. I shut up.
We finished. I went into the local hostelry and I can tell you.....that pint of beer ne'er tasted as sweet.
Hope you found this interesting.
Caveat - procedures might well have changed since the events I am about to unfold took place but I suspect the principles remain the same and...I'm pretty sure you can't take solicitors to the small claims court for over-charging.
Time and place....mid 1970's. Me and a co-director ran a small computer manufacturing company. One of our dealers defaulted owing us £10k...a lot of money now and even more so back then. We were pretty naive when it came to taking anyone to court (we had a personal guarantee from the dealer). Naive enough to use our country-hick solicitors to take the dealer to court. The dealer knew every trick in the book for prevaricating and ran rings around our solicitors. We never even considered dumping them. Eventually and after a long long time, all the available avenues had been exhausted and the dealer agreed to stage payments of £1k at a time. The first payment came and our solicitors grabbed the lot which we thought excessive particularly as the bill was not broken down into itemised amounts. The dealer also defaulted on the next payment and so we knew that we would need to return to the courts.
So we complained to The Law Society who gave us a list of three London Fetter Lane big boys to choose from to act on our behalf both against our first solicitor and also the dealer. They wrote to our country hick solicitors who immediately capitulated and refunded us around £700. Bit of a result.
The new solicitors (Grabit'n'Run) being street-wise soon got the dealer pinned down. Small bills came from the solicitors that were eminently reasonable particularly in view of the success that they were having with the new case against the dealer. Instalments restarted and everything quietened down. Until.
The Taxing Master
Until about three months later, we got a bill out of the blue from the London solicitors. Which was for quite a lot of money and which we naturally queried. They pushed back and so we were faced with taking things to the next level which was to go in front of the Taxing Master at Lincoln's Inn Fields. I say 'we' but actually by this time it was 'I' as my co-director had wearied of the whole thing and I had bought his share of the debt.
I duly arrived not really knowing what to expect. Waiting outside was a costing clerk from the solicitors. We entered into one of the (then) most intimidating legal environments that I have ever been in. Huge oak-panelled room, massive oak desk on the other side of which 8 feet away from us and wearing Mr Micawber type glasses scowled The Taxing Master. Believe me, to this mid-twenties commercially and legally naive soul it was intimidating. He glowered at the Costing Clerk and bellowed 'Well, Mr S, what is your problem'? 'Ooh, I thought... a racist Taxing Master'.. as the costing clerk was Indian.
I quietly pointed out that it was me and that I thought that Grab'it'n'Run had overcharged me (I refrained from adding that given the sole reason for appointing Grabit was because the previous solicitors had over-charged, I thought it pretty dumb of Grabit to also try it on). The Taxing Master asked if I had received a detailed itemised breakdown of their charges. I had not. Literally snarling at the Costing Clerk, he asked him 'Why hadn't Mr S received the breakdown?'. Answer came there none. I was then faced with two choices. Come back another day (which would involve train fares etc) or spend 30 minutes going through the Costing Clerk's files. I reckoned that if I couldn't find some dirt in those files then I shouldn't have even been there.
Rules of the Game
The rules of the game are very simple. If you can persuade the Taxing Master to deduct at least 15% (or so it was then) off the bill then you don't have to pay any additional fees incurred by Grabit'nm'Run in preparing for and attending the Taxing Master ...and you win. If not then you lose and pay the fees incurred by Grabit in sending their clerk along. The costs charged are based on three things...
(1) Telephone calls in/out to the solicitor
(2) Letters in/out
(3) Time spent by legal people including any partners of the firm
I didn't really have an issue with (1) and (2) because (a) my own record keeping was rubbish so I couldn't prove these one way or the other and (b) the amount was pretty small. But (3) looked to be the way in as I soon realised what had happened. It happens in many so-called professional organisations such as solicitors and management consultants. Anyone short on billable earnings will 'invent' some work that they carried out and bill it to unsuspecting clients. Looking through the breakdown and focusing on the hours billed against names I discovered several names that not only did I not recognise but there was no documentary evidence in the way of supporting material to backup the claim for hours worked. Other names had worked on the case, had been billed for at the time that they did the work...usually some many months long ago...and that there was nothing to justify their latest billing.
My thirty minutes were up and we went into battle. I accepted (1) and (2) and then queried the first billable hours. "What had they done for this time?". "Where was the proof?".
"Well" growled the Taxing Master. The costing clerk frantically scrabbled through his file. "There is none, Sir" he replied. "Right..strike that out...next" said the TM.
And so we went on. I accepted a few that I felt were legitimate but most of the others the taxing master either struck out or reduced by 50%. Even the partner's time! Well over the 15% I was cooking ! We finally got to the end and I had had my bill reduced by about 60%. I was on a roll!
The taxing master asked me if there was anything else I'd like to claim? I reached across to make a grab for the costing clerks files as I was convinced that I could uncover some more fiddling. I was frozen in my tracks as the Taxing Master gave me a withering look and asked me "And just exactly what do you think you are doing, Mr S ? Those files belong to Grabit'n'Run. "
I was just about to blurt out that Grabit'n'Run were a load of thieving shysters when the cautionary little man on my shoulder...you know, the one who cautions you and who you ignore at your peril....said 'Stop. Where are you? Think Slander'. I shut up.
We finished. I went into the local hostelry and I can tell you.....that pint of beer ne'er tasted as sweet.
Hope you found this interesting.
Bloody well done for persevering too. You sure landed one on the thieving gits! If everyone took your thorough approach I'm sure they wouldn't do it quite so much.
