Oil and water Stones identifying

[Mike.S]

I have a small collection of oil and water stones, some of which I'll keep and others I'll dispose of. To help me decide, I'd like your help with trying to identify what type and grit they are. From my online searches so far, this seems to be a common problem, so whilst some of those pictured have identifying marks I've left them in as it may help others with similar stones.

The two on the left I think are Arkansas i.e. natural stones. Here's some close ups:

Are they Arkansas, and, if so, how can you tell what grade/grit they are or even if they can be approximated to coarse/medium/fine? Just by touch they seem very hard and fine but not sure that's very helpful.

This one below (middle of Group photo above) is marked as an Indian Medium stone (7"x2"x1"). Can't quite make out what the markings are just before 'MEDIUM' but assume it's some sort of manufacturing/ID code. Curiously, I can't find that Norton make 7" long stones - they're either 6" or 8".

Fourth from left is a Bear brand India Oil Stone combination (8"x2"x1 1/8") of 100 grit (black side) and 320 grit (brown side).

And the one on the right is a waterstone - that had been stored in a jar with water and bleach. Close up:

Unfortunately, the bleach has removed almost all traces of the markings. It's dimensions are 8 1/8" x 2 5/8" x 1 3/8" or 206mm x 67mm x 35mm. The nearerst I can find by searching are King branded Japanese waterstones, listed by fine-tools and 'King Deluxe' by Matthews Workshop Heaven in 800-1200 grit. Does this seem realistic, as I'm basing this purely on colour and dimensions :-?

Once I know what I've got I'll hopefully be able to make a decision as to which way to take my sharpening (please, no debates on that aspect ).

 

[Sean Hellman]

The only way of telling which grits are which is by using them. Get a loupe so you can see the scratch marks created by the stones. Coarse stones leave a matt finish whilst finer ones give a more polished finish. All you need are coarse fine and polishing, which you have. Don't worry about grit sizes as long as you can go for the progression that's fine. The other consideration is how fast the. Stones cut the steel, go for the faster one discard the slow ones. The water stone is the odd one out so unless you have others ditch it. I use baby oil on my stones, cheap and the right vicoscity for sharpening and does not dry my hands out like water especially in the winter when my hands tend to crack from the dryness of the cold weather

 

[MIGNAL]

I'm no expert on these but your Arkansas does appear to be very similar to my Smiths Arkansas that I bought some 25 years ago from Axminster.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

My uneducated guess is the two on the left are washita stones (natural). If DW (Dave Weaver) is around I'm sure he'll give you an opinion also. If washita, the (somewhat) equivalent would be the medium india (man made) you have.

 

[D_W]

It's hard to tell the pure white soft arkansas stones from the pure white washitas. I was looking at this earlier, but figured I wouldn't comment as they aren't the type of washitas that are easy to spot with the mottling, or with the waxy look on the outside of the stone.

They are certainly worth trying, and even if not a washita, worth being a stone prior to a hard arkansas stone in a sharpening routine.

Plus, they last a lifetime if not dropped, unlike most current production stones.

 

[bugbear]

It's hard to tell the pure white soft arkansas stones from the pure white washitas. I was looking at this earlier, but figured I wouldn't comment as they aren't the type of washitas that are easy to spot with the mottling, or with the waxy look on the outside of the stone.

They are certainly worth trying, and even if not a washita, worth being a stone prior to a hard arkansas stone in a sharpening routine.

Plus, they last a lifetime if not dropped, unlike most current production stones.

India fine->Washita->Arkansas->Strop form an excellent (and time hallowed) oil stone sequence.

Just like sandpapering, when aiming for a fine finish, you get a better result, and faster too, if you don't skip a grit.

BugBear

 

[Mike.S]

Thank you all. The concensus seems to be that the two on the left are some form of Arkansas/Washita stone. That led me to research a bit more and I found several pages, including Dan's Whetstone supplies, which seems to specialise in these stones. Assuming this is accurate, then there are several grades of Arkansas, from Washita (softest and coarse) to Hard Black Arkansas (hard and ultra fine).

Interestingly, it explains that the actual grit size between the different stones is similar (unlike sandpaper, for instance) and it's the density of the grits/stone that differentiate the Arkansas range. So, less dense=softer=more abrasive and dense=hard=polish. The density is measured by specific gravity (SG) and a range assigned to each classifciation. Probably best to read Dan's website but I could, for example, put a stone in a bucket of water, measure the weight of the displaced water and compare that to the stone's weight when dry and thus obtain the SG.

Otherwise, the more pragmatic approach suggested was not to worry too much and just try them out and form an appropriate sharpening sequence i.e. soft/coarse to hard/fine. This is sound advice but there's that bit of OCD in me that says "calculate the SG" . Then I'll try them out and dispose of the duplicate grades :idea:

As far as the Water Stone goes, as noted, it is all alone, so will be disposed of. Absent any dissenting voices, I'll describe it as mooted i.e. probably a King brand Japanaese Water Stone of around 1000 grit.

Many thanks to you all.

Mike

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

It's hard to tell the pure white soft arkansas stones from the pure white washitas. I was looking at this earlier, but figured I wouldn't comment as they aren't the type of washitas that are easy to spot with the mottling, or with the waxy look on the outside of the stone.

They are certainly worth trying, and even if not a washita, worth being a stone prior to a hard arkansas stone in a sharpening routine.

Plus, they last a lifetime if not dropped, unlike most current production stones.

Dave,

Also thought the white <may> have been a white arkansas. I wouldn't tule that out, except that the picture posted has character istics of several old white(r) washitas I have. Plus I have a few vintage white arkansas's and their surface coloration is more even.

If I were the OP, I would use them! Though at the moment I use Spyderco's on the modern steels I use (mostly modern O1, a single PMV-11 chisel, and maybe a stray piece of A2), most vintage steels respond well to a bit of honing on a washita, and then a couple of licks on a strop (no jigs here, folks!).

One of these days, we really need to get photos of the various identified stones we have, compiled and onto stickys for the forums we visit. I don't buy every stone I come across anymore-have gotten to pricey, with some at almost $5.00!!!! I only buy those for which that the owner has spent time making a nice case. Generally these are the better, more expensive stones when first purchased and ones that the owners felt strongly enough to protect.

T.

 

[bugbear]

As far as the Water Stone goes, as noted, it is all alone, so will be disposed of. Absent any dissenting voices, I'll describe it as mooted i.e. probably a King brand Japanaese Water Stone of around 1000 grit.

It would make an excellent sharpening stone for kitchen knives - used with a sink bridge, in the kitchen.

BugBear

 

[Mike.S]

One of these days, we really need to get photos of the various identified stones we have, compiled and onto stickys for the forums we visit. I don't buy every stone I come across anymore-have gotten to pricey, with some at almost $5.00!!!! I only buy those for which that the owner has spent time making a nice case. Generally these are the better, more expensive stones when first purchased and ones that the owners felt strongly enough to protect.

T.

+1 for compiling a sticky somewhere - this topic seems to crop up regularly over the years/various forums

+1 for 'only buy those for which that the owner has spent time making a nice case'

Some of the stones I have I bought (not pictured), another from Dad (who can't remember...) and others acquired in a job lot of tools from a professional woodworker but ID/history not known.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

As far as the Water Stone goes, as noted, it is all alone, so will be disposed of. Absent any dissenting voices, I'll describe it as mooted i.e. probably a King brand Japanaese Water Stone of around 1000 grit.

It would make an excellent sharpening stone for kitchen knives - used with a sink bridge, in the kitchen.

BugBear

I got a coule of waterstones, but since I started on oilstones, I couldn't quite figure them out. Too much fussing! I'm also not a member of the "flat world society", especially since I sharpen without jigs, and pretty much use the whole stone surface. Also, without jigs, one can use smaller stones nicely, which are cheaper!

 

[Mike.S]

In case anyone's interested (besides me ) I decided to experiment with my broken Arkansas stone (2nd from left in Group photo above). I filled a plastic milk carton (with top cut off) with water, placed it in a 5l plastic container and then put the stone into the milk carton. Water displaced was measured (in a plastic paint mixing cup) at between 210 and 220 ml (millilitres) depending on where the miniscus came. We know 1 ml = 1g (so much easier in metric).

Then weighed the stone on scales (kitchen type, not the best but it'll do...) to record 450g. 450 divided by 210 -220 gives a range of 2.04 to 2.14. So, specific gravity is around 2.10, which, according to Dan's Whetstones page (see earlier post) means it's a Washita (specific gravity < 2.25) - a coarse or c.400 grit equivalent stone.

Tony and Dave - take a bow =D> .

Now I just need to prise that other one from its wooden box...... (hammer)

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

In case anyone's interested (besides me ) I decided to experiment with my broken Arkansas stone (2nd from left in Group photo above). I filled a plastic milk carton (with top cut off) with water, placed it in a 5l plastic container and then put the stone into the milk carton. Water displaced was measured (in a plastic paint mixing cup) at between 210 and 220 ml (millilitres) depending on where the miniscus came. We know 1 ml = 1g (so much easier in metric).

Then weighed the stone on scales (kitchen type, not the best but it'll do...) to record 450g. 450 divided by 210 -220 gives a range of 2.04 to 2.14. So, specific gravity is around 2.10, which, according to Dan's Whetstones page (see earlier post) means it's a Washita (specific gravity < 2.25) - a coarse or c.400 grit equivalent stone.

Tony and Dave - take a bow =D> .

Now I just need to prise that other one from its wooden box...... (hammer)

Use and cherish those washita's!

 

[AndyT]

It's been mentioned on here before but new readers might not know that there is a book which tries to make sense of a wide collection of stones, "Natural 19th & Early 20th Century Sharpening Stones and Hones". The authors take a scientific approach so stones were subjected to an automated test to measure the speed of cutting and are illustrated with photos from an electron microscope to show the structure of grains within the matrix. It's only £11 inc uk p&p, from TATHS.

 

[Trafalgar]

I have a No. 1 Washita and Black Ark. The Washita produces a very serviceable edge. I usually go straight to a hard rubber strop from the Washita these days and use the Black Ark rarely. The treated strop is in essence my finest stone. I use AlOx powder on it -- brings up a very high polish and smoothness to the iron. Just takes a few swipes. I haven't found a sequence any faster than this. If you catch the edge fairly early the treated hard strop alone works just fine.

This is about a $40 solution, if that -- Washita then treated strop -- worth considering if one is subject to a budget or desires a simple arrangement.

 

[bugbear]

a hard rubber strop ... The treated strop is in essence my finest stone. I use AlOx powder on it

I've never heard of a rubber strop - please tell me more.

What grit AloX are you using?

BugBear

 

[D_W]

a hard rubber strop ... The treated strop is in essence my finest stone. I use AlOx powder on it

I've never heard of a rubber strop - please tell me more.

What grit AloX are you using?

BugBear

MDF works fine if it's more available.

 

[bugbear]

a hard rubber strop ... The treated strop is in essence my finest stone. I use AlOx powder on it

I've never heard of a rubber strop - please tell me more.

What grit AloX are you using?

BugBear

MDF works fine if it's more available.

Yes - there are several conventional, common, widely used materials for strops and laps.

Various hides, cardboard, balsa, end grain hardwoods.

But I've never heard of rubber being used, hence my interest.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Is-Good-WD40 ... 160%2C160_

I just use the Wood is Good pure AlOx powder (no binders). I'm not sure what grit it is, but it's very fine. I've had the small $5 vial for probably five years. It takes a tiny amount to film the strop. The product sticks essentially by static I guess. It's a pure powder. Glass cleaner cleans the strop, don't have to do it that often.

5/100's of a micron product is available here, if you just have to:

http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/pro ... plies.aspx

 

[iNewbie]

Phew - glad its that one...

http://www.aswgt.com/rubberrazorstrop.html