Not so smart meter

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes; I was incorrect in using the term "remotely". I'll rephrase; supplier's don't need you to have a smart meter in order to shut off your supply legally. Point being: unless you're planning on holing yourself up in your home and fighting "them" off, not having a smart meter isn't going to help much.

Except they need Smartmeters to switch thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands off at the same time at will.

 

[HamsterJam]

Yes; I was incorrect in using the term "remotely". I'll rephrase; supplier's don't need you to have a smart meter in order to shut off your supply legally. Point being: unless you're planning on holing yourself up in your home and fighting "them" off, not having a smart meter isn't going to help much.

Thanks for the clarification Sploo.

The point I was making in my earlier post is that smart meters make it very easy for energy suppliers to swap defaulting customers to prepay tariffs as they can do it remotely with a few button clicks. My issue is they were abusing this facility by circumventing the legal processes including checks whether the customer is dependant on electricity for medical equipment, etc.

Without a smart meter, the energy supplier has to swap the meters over (presumably to a smart meter) to put defaulting users on a prepay tariff and that will usually require some sort of court order or warrant to access the premises. I am putting a lot of trust in our legal systems here but, I sincerely hope the courts will not grant one unless the energy supplier can demonstrate due process has been followed.

I believe subsequently the regulator has ‘had words’ but I haven’t seen whether any fines were issued.

 

[sploo]

Except they need Smartmeters to switch thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands off at the same time at will.

"At will" is technically possible, but the supplier would still need legal approval. I.e. they can't just do it for fun. I understand that generally the suppliers are pretty wary about disconnecting people because it (understandably) results in bad press.

The more likely step in the future will be DSR (Demand side response (DSR): What is it? Why do it? | GridBeyond) in order to try to manage the expected load from more and more people charging EV cars. Note that an EV battery is absolutely huge compared to what is used by an average household, so with V2G (Vehicle-to-grid - Wikipedia) there is the potential to smooth out demand by shunting power to/from parked EV cars.

 

[sploo]

Thanks for the clarification Sploo.

The point I was making in my earlier post is that smart meters make it very easy for energy suppliers to swap defaulting customers to prepay tariffs as they can do it remotely with a few button clicks. My issue is they were abusing this facility by circumventing the legal processes including checks whether the customer is dependant on electricity for medical equipment, etc.

Without a smart meter, the energy supplier has to swap the meters over (presumably to a smart meter) to put defaulting users on a prepay tariff and that will usually require some sort of court order or warrant to access the premises. I am putting a lot of trust in our legal systems here but, I sincerely hope the courts will not grant one unless the energy supplier can demonstrate due process has been followed.

I believe subsequently the regulator has ‘had words’ but I haven’t seen whether any fines were issued.

Yea, this caused (quite rightly) a big stink. Given the problems in the energy sector over the last few years (price rises/suppliers going out of business) I could understand suppliers being jumpy; but there was still no moral justification in switching people over the pre-pay with little notice. Legally they may well have been "in the right", but it still looked really bad.

 

[John Brown]

To the OP, all I can say is DO NOT agree to have a smart meter installed. Why? Because anything the government is 'pushing' is never in 'your best interest'!

Additionally the smart meters can learn a lot about your activity: when you're out (usage goes down) to exactly the 'time' you use electricity. The whole idea behind Economy7 was to use 'cheaper' electricity at night. But how they know if you DO switch on at night, is a mystery, as nothing as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong, as I've not had electric heating at any point myself) can indicate when you decide to use your heating.

Additionally hackers will be able to 'see' when you're home too, and when you're out, by your energy usage, and plan the best time to visit. This will become more important as people struggle financially, and crime rises even higher (sorry to paint a bleak picture, but I'm living in the real world).

HOWEVER, that said, the smart meters know exactly what you're doing and when, or you wouldn't be able to 'see' how well (or not) you're doing. They don't save ANY money directly, but instead rely on people watching their energy usage carefully, and of course there is naturally a tendency to therefore use less.

But something no one has yet mentioned, is the radiation/EMF being emitted from the smart meter! WiFi, 5G and electronic devices that surround us, are in fact making us sick, whether or not the suppliers know. I'd be will to say the people they employ to 'push' these devices, aren't ever trained on the harm they cause, or they'd find it more difficult to recruit. But there is a plethora of information out there (if you know where to look) to support this. Mobile phone manufacturers actually advise people NOT to hold their phone against their ear or head, but 1.5" or 3cm away. It's still not ideal, as your hand still gets the EMF; and putting headphones on only shoves the EMF down the wires into your brain. The best thing (if not walking or out somewhere) is to put the phone onto a chair or table, away from you, on speaker, or if private, then you can use 'AirTubes' (a small speaker in a tube, powered via a wire until the speaker, and then relying on the air in the tube to get the sound to your ears thereafter). However, how often DO you see people holding a phone away from their head? But anyway, I digress!

The whole idea of smart meters IS (as has been said) to enable them to turn off your supply remotely. The only time they'd forcibly try to install a smart meter, is if you're in payment arrears, but anything other than that they simply cannot force you.

But the 'electrosmog' those meters put out has severe adverse effects on some people (electro-sensitive); and those who don't have noticeable reactions, will still be stressing their bodies, and who knows what the effects will be further down the road. Best not even indulge these companies - but they WILL push them, over and over again, as the government is paying them to! Telling them it's 'green' and all that claptrap.

I can recommend Dr Mercola's book titled 'EMF**d', for anyone who'd like to know more.
I think also, that when they start putting energy caps in place, or restricting supplies at certain times, once again they'll be able to remotely do this. DO not trust the energy companies or government.

In closing I would also like to put the cat among the pigeons: Our utility bills should be 'free' anyway, as our government did a deal with the people after the war, for reparations of the time when they forcibly confiscated our precious metals. I'm in the process of dealing with this myself now, having been shafted left right and centre by our governments and local authorities. There are many reasons to now take action and push back, because they have CAUSED all of this inflation. So this is my way of taking back what they stole from me in the first place!

Please tell me that this is supposed to be a joke. Joseph Mercola is an osteopath, and well known snake oil salesman, and that's putting it politely.

 

[Housey210]

Is it possible to have both smart meter and the old analogue? Loads of horror stories about these smart things and they are something I just dont trust. Still on the old meters for gas and lecky, in external cabinets, and with ample room in utility room, behind cabinets, I can see no reason why the old meters can not be put in line after that reading? Distribution board and boiler in utility. Just supplementary readings for personal use. Who owns the meters, changed supplier many a time and can new certificated meters be bought. Work obviously carried out be qualified trades.

 

[PDW125]

Older SMETs1 devices had a number of issues but the majority (and all new rollout ones) are SMETs2 and use the 4G network.

It’s near impossible to hack the network for a number of reasons, as the data aggregator point is the only place usage data exchange happens and even then, it’s the MPAN/MID that is associated with the usage data. To then get an address, you would need to ‘hack’ the energy supplier, correlate the (encrypted) MPAN data to the customer record, and then you have the info you need …

Sitting in the road in car watching people come and go is a much easier way to work out who’s house is empty…

 

[sploo]

Please tell me that this is supposed to be a joke. Joseph Mercola is an osteopath, and well known snake oil salesman, and that's putting it politely.

It's always the case though with the conspiracy theorists isn't it; just enough plausibility to appear believable (a "Dr", or a published in an official sounding - but bogus - journal etc.) but ultimately nonsense.

 

[mwinfrance]

It's always the case though with the conspiracy theorists isn't it; just enough plausibility to appear believable (a "Dr", or a published in an official sounding - but bogus - journal etc.) but ultimately nonsense.

I'd just like to say , having had a smart meter installed since 5 years now, both my heads agree with you.

I had ours ( smart meter / Linky ) installed ( where the old one was inside in the kitchen, open plan next to my office and our living room ) so that I'd not have strangers ( hired from the french job centres for a week just to read meters by EDF ) traipsing through our house ( and seeing all the computers ( 14* ), expensive digital cameras cameras etc ) and then possibly deciding to come back with a friend when we were out.

* lot of image "crunching" and a small home "render farm" plus my four for web and son's 3 and SWMBO one. and one to run the lasers.

 

[sploo]

Is it possible to have both smart meter and the old analogue? Loads of horror stories about these smart things and they are something I just dont trust. Still on the old meters for gas and lecky, in external cabinets, and with ample room in utility room, behind cabinets, I can see no reason why the old meters can not be put in line after that reading? Distribution board and boiler in utility. Just supplementary readings for personal use. Who owns the meters, changed supplier many a time and can new certificated meters be bought. Work obviously carried out be qualified trades.

I would assume that a modern (even if non-smart) meter wouldn't take the form of the old analogue electric meters though?

Remember that there are - literally - millions of these new meters working without issue; you'll generally only be hearing from people who are having problems. Often the reported problems with a "smart meter" are actually due to the In Home Display (IHD) not displaying sensible information. But then that's usually because the supplier hasn't sent the right data to the smart meter - so there's not actually anything wrong with the meter or the IHD.

 

[sploo]

I'd just like to say , having had a smart meter installed since 5 years now, both my heads agree with you.

But are they both covered in tin foil

 

[mwinfrance]

But are they both covered in tin foil

Yiss ( for the Kiwis )..but not too tightly.

 

[Spectric]

The whole idea behind Economy7 was to use 'cheaper' electricity at night. But how they know if you DO switch on at night, is a mystery, as nothing as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong, as I've not had electric heating at any point myself) can indicate when you decide to use your heating.

Nothing smart about economy seven, all that happened was a timer switched the meter over from dayrate to economy 7 and the idea was originally for night storage heaters. You used cheap electricity to heat up a pile of bricks overnight and then during the day this heat kept you warm or that was the theory.

The storage heaters would have there own distribution board and this gives you an idea of there consumption.

 

[mwinfrance]

Friend of mine had night storage heaters on economy 7..also had horrific leccy bills, and a cold house, unless he ran heating during the day.Hence horrific bills.

 

[RWoody]

Nothing smart about economy seven, all that happened was a timer switched the meter over from dayrate to economy 7 and the idea was originally for night storage heaters. You used cheap electricity to heat up a pile of bricks overnight and then during the day this heat kept you warm or that was the theory.

The storage heaters would have there own distribution board and this gives you an idea of there consumption.

Indeed. I remember taking out all the heat-storage bricks once, ready to fit another storage heater, but was able to work around it in the end, fortunately.

The other disadvantage (and it's a significant one) was that you had to 'guess' what the weather would be like the following day, for if it was warmer, then you'd stored too much heat, which is difficult to restrict or turn 'off' as even if you try, heat would still slowly seep out, and in effect waste all that energy anyway; but if colder than anticipated, then not sufficient heat would be stored, as you'd open the vents to allow the heat to circulate, and end up running out of stored heat as the day progressed. Most inconvenient in practice.

 

[RWoody]

Friend of mine had night storage heaters on economy 7..also had horrific leccy bills, and a cold house, unless he ran heating during the day.Hence horrific bills.

Yes, they are notoriously 'weak' in terms of energy output, and as you say, you end up having to supplement anyway! Definitely not 'smart', eh?

 

[RWoody]

Please tell me that this is supposed to be a joke. Joseph Mercola is an osteopath, and well known snake oil salesman, and that's putting it politely.

Yes, Mercola certainly is an osteopath. So what? He has a good track record and is definitely in accord with my own independent research. Just because someone isn't of a particular 'breed' doesn't render what they say invalid. We have people like Chris Whitty, all the computer models he worked on, ALL wildly inaccurate; as well as people like Bill Gates who dropped out of his formal 'education' (indoctrination more like) but going on to present as an expert. Countless people, including economists, who clearly don't understand what they studied (Keynesian vs Austrian economics, as very few so-called economists know anything about Austrian economics as they were never taught it!). Tragically too many people are sheep, bowing to the powers-that-shouldn't-be. Monumental corruption, worldwide I'm afraid.

Furthermore the so-called doctors don't have the faintest idea about anything outside of allopathic medicine, as all they 'study' has been put in their heads by big pharma, which if you aren't aware, is DEEPLY misguided and corrupted, thereby misinforming the doctors, as a lot of 'inconvenient' data is taken out or otherwise manipulated to mitigate adverse effects. So take it from me, I don't 'need' experts, they are the last one's I'd ask, and I trust natural, integrated medicine. We are run by headless, hence clueless people in the main. But I'm getting off the OP topic here, though wanted to illustrate why following experts is not always a wise choice; and by default therefore doing one's own research, as I indeed to. Don't believe all you read in the mainstream media! People put too much faith in it, when we really need just to open our eyes and dutifully do our own research.

 

[HamsterJam]

Is it possible to have both smart meter and the old analogue? Loads of horror stories about these smart things and they are something I just dont trust. Still on the old meters for gas and lecky, in external cabinets, and with ample room in utility room, behind cabinets, I can see no reason why the old meters can not be put in line after that reading? Distribution board and boiler in utility. Just supplementary readings for personal use. Who owns the meters, changed supplier many a time and can new certificated meters be bought. Work obviously carried out be qualified trades.

For electricity, everything up to and including the meter is usually owned by the DNO (i.e. the regional electricity company). Note this will likely be different to the energy supplier, who use the equipment provided by the DNO to distribute their electricity (which they will buy from an electricity generator). This is why we have the odd situation with solar Installations where the DNO has to swap out any old analogue meters that run backwards but it’s the supplier that loses out if they don’t.
The ‘meter tails’ that connect the meter to the consumer unit (fuse box) and everything downstream from that usually belong to the customer.

You can buy meters on the open market. I think single phase 100A electricity meters start around £50.

 

[XTiffy]

I am right with RWoody, who qualifies the "experts". The ability of so many to look at a subject and say"does this make sense" has dropped dramatically. At 75 I have witnessed so many statements of "fact", that were anything but. 1970s "Global cooling and ice age" anyone, this was by Scientists not conspiricists, (they were too busy with the US never landed on the moon). Whatever happened to "stay in, have the *** to protect others", which was never true. Don't get me started on the Post Office percecuting innocent PostMasters (our experts cannot be wrong). Smart meters are about control of supply, whether that turns out to be a good thing or not is for the future. What is a fact is that the cost of installing smart meters is borne by all customers regardless of ability to pay.

 

[HamsterJam]

The whole idea behind Economy7 was to use 'cheaper' electricity at night. But how they know if you DO switch on at night, is a mystery, as nothing as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong, as I've not had electric heating at any point myself) can indicate when you decide to use your heating.

I had Economy 7 in my first house and that was fitted with a dual rate analogue meter like the picture below. This has two sets of readouts one for normal or daytime units and one for low rate or night units. At the appropriate time, the meter would swap over from counting day units to night units. You could therefore differentiate between energy used during the day/evening and overnight. Of course there was nothing to say what the energy had been used for but I think it a safe bet that back then any substantial energy use overnight would be heating (or hot water). Having said that, I did time other appliances like the washing machine to run overnight on the cheaper rate electricity.