Noddy rebate plane question

[disco_monkey79]

Apologies if any of the following is stupid, but... I want to use more hand tools, and would like a rebate plane (I mean something like the all-steel Record 778, rather than the older wooden-bodied ones).

Are several different plane bodies required to have e.g. a narrow blade and a wide one, or can various widths of blade be used in the same body? If the former, can anyone advise which body relates to what size width blade?

Or, is there essentially one thickness of blade, and if you want to plane a trench wider than the blade, do you need to make repeated passes?

Again, apologies if that's daft/nonsensical, but I've never seen one in action. Examining one in the flesh would probably answer a lot of my questions but I don't have the opportunity without first purchasing.

Many thanks.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Ahah. A rebate plane creates a rabbet or step at the edge of a board, and has a fence which moves across the sole, so that rabbets of any width less than or equal to the plane width can be produced.
A plough plane cuts a trench or groove some distance in from the edge of a board, and does indeed work with a multitude of cutter widths. Also useful for cutting very wide rabbets.
A dado (shoulder with nickers) plane can be used to cut grooves as wide or wider than the plane body in the middle of a board.

 

[disco_monkey79]

Much obliged, sounds like I need a plough rather than a rebate plane then (or both - now you're talking!).

Cheers!

 

[bugbear]

Much obliged, sounds like I need a plough rather than a rebate plane then (or both - now you're talking!).

Cheers!

Or a combination plane ... paging Alf, paging Alf, you're needed over here!

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/combinationplanes.html

BugBear (probably joking)

 

[woodbloke]

Ahah. A rebate plane creates a rabbet or step at the edge of a board, and has a fence which moves across the sole, so that rabbets of any width less than or equal to the plane width can be produced.
A plough plane cuts a trench or groove some distance in from the edge of a board, and does indeed work with a multitude of cutter widths. Also useful for cutting very wide rabbets.

Absolutely :lol: but if the blade and fence is set appropriately, a plough will aslo cut a rebate along the edge of a board...not very wide to be fair, but up to the widest cutter available (usually around 12mm or so) - Rob

 

[disco_monkey79]

Thanks all for the answers. I've been having a look a 2nd-hand ones, and seen various blades for sale separately. Will (for example) Record plough plane blades be usable in the body of another make, or would I need to source it all of the same make?

Thanks again

 

[GazPal]

Ahah. A rebate plane creates a rabbet or step at the edge of a board, and has a fence which moves across the sole, so that rabbets of any width less than or equal to the plane width can be produced.
A plough plane cuts a trench or groove some distance in from the edge of a board, and does indeed work with a multitude of cutter widths. Also useful for cutting very wide rabbets.

Absolutely :lol: but if the blade and fence is set appropriately, a plough will aslo cut a rebate along the edge of a board...not very wide to be fair, but up to the widest cutter available (usually around 12mm or so) - Rob

Or plough a trench to the inner extreme of the intended rebate and to depth, using the rebate plane before removing surplus using another plane (e.g. a #5/#05).

 

[Vann]

I've been having a look a 2nd-hand ones, and seen various blades for sale separately. Will (for example) Record plough plane blades be usable in the body of another make, or would I need to source it all of the same make?

Generally (not always), cutters from one plough plane will fit another plough plane. BUT if you want to use the adjuster, you need cutters from the same model.

Eg. cutters from a Record 044 will not fit the adjuster on a Record 050 or 405 etc. Cutters from an early Stanley 50 will not fit the adjuster on a later Stanley 50, and cutters from both early and later Stanley 50s will not fit the adjuster on a Record 50 (050).

On the other hand the cutters on the Stanley 45 and Record 405 are interchangeable and both will fit the Stanley 55.

Confused? You should be by now...

Cheers, Vann.

 

[bugbear]

Or plough a trench to the inner extreme of the intended rebate and to depth, using the rebate plane before removing surplus using another plane (e.g. a #5/#05).

I'm guessing you meant "plough plane" (for ploughing...), not "rebate plane".

Traditional practice, especially for wider rebates, was to plough the trench, then remove the waste with a non fenced (and cheap, and fast) skew rebate plane. This separating the two tasks of defining the rebate accurately, and removing a large amount of waste, and also saves the cost of a moving fillister and/or sash rebate plane.

BugBear

 

[SteveB43]

I had a go in the last few days, cross cutting a trench, and then a rebate, using a newly sharpened and honed Stanley 50 for the trench and 78 for the rebate, with very mixed results. Using the suggested spurs (sharpened) actually stopped the plane as it seems you need to push with some force, the spur across the grain first, before the tool settles and cuts your rebate or trench. It would be easier to cut the grain first with a saw, then use the plane to take out the now severed waste, effectivley using the plane as a chisel...

 

[bugbear]

I had a go in the last few days, cross cutting a trench, and then a rebate, using a newly sharpened and honed Stanley 50 for the trench and 78 for the rebate, with very mixed results. Using the suggested spurs (sharpened) actually stopped the plane as it seems you need to push with some force, the spur across the grain first, before the tool settles and cuts your rebate or trench. It would be easier to cut the grain first with a saw, then use the plane to take out the now severed waste, effectivley using the plane as a chisel...

I think (from your language) that's a cross grain rebate.

Dado'ing is definitely harder than grooving.

As an aside, it's interesting that ploughing has special words for the direction of the grain, but rebating doesn't, AFAIK.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Using the suggested spurs (sharpened) actually stopped the plane as it seems you need to push with some force, the spur across the grain first, before the tool settles and cuts your rebate or trench.

The problem with the spurs on the Stanley #50 and #78 is that, as supplied, they are too long and need to be filed or ground down so that they are considerably shorter, otherwise, as you have found, the plane is difficult to use. Some more modern planes made by Veritas and Lie Nielsen have circular cross-grain spurs which can be raised and lowered to solve this problem. You might be better using a knife to sever the grain and not bother with the spurs.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[andy king]

As an aside, it's interesting that ploughing has special words for the direction of the grain, but rebating doesn't, AFAIK.
BugBear

Hi BB,

My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet.
Whether this is the same nationally or world wide I don't know, but down this neck of the woods (at least, back in late 70s!) that was the case.

cheers,
Andy

 

[Jacob]

....

The problem with the spurs on the Stanley #50 and #78 is that, as supplied, they are too long and need to be filed or ground down so that they are considerably shorter, ....

Don't know abt the 50 but that's the idea with the 78 - you modify the spur as you want, and there are two extra blank ones on the clover leaf in case you run out of options.
I find it works really well. The secret is to use it like a marker gauge at first - pull the plane towards you so it doesn't cut, but you mark a good line with the spur. And again if you want a deeper mark, as you might do on cross grain.
Then more often than not I'd use it for the first pass or two so it cuts a clean line, and then retract it once below the surface.
The 78 has one big advantage over the others in that the fence support covers the blade and avoids cut fingers - a real problem with the other patterns. The say that one fence post is not enough but I've never found it the slightest problem, an advantage in fact.

 

[GazPal]

Or plough a trench to the inner extreme of the intended rebate and to depth, using the rebate plane before removing surplus using another plane (e.g. a #5/#05).

I'm guessing you meant "plough plane" (for ploughing...), not "rebate plane".

Traditional practice, especially for wider rebates, was to plough the trench, then remove the waste with a non fenced (and cheap, and fast) skew rebate plane. This separating the two tasks of defining the rebate accurately, and removing a large amount of waste, and also saves the cost of a moving fillister and/or sash rebate plane.

BugBear

A simple case of poor editing on my part before posting

 

[Alf]

As an aside, it's interesting that ploughing has special words for the direction of the grain, but rebating doesn't, AFAIK.
BugBear

Hi BB,

My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet.
Whether this is the same nationally or world wide I don't know, but down this neck of the woods (at least, back in late 70s!) that was the case.

cheers,
Andy

Rebate and rabbet are just synonyms pretty much everywhere else in the English-speaking world though, aren't they? For a while Adam Cherubini was trying to convince everyone to call a cross-grain rebate a fillister/fillester, which never made any sense to me. If there is a widely recognised term to differentiate one from t'other (beyond adding a "cross grain" qualifier), it appears to be kept a closely guarded secret.

For completeness, there is another way to make a rebate with a plough that I don't think has been mentioned yet:

 

[andy king]

As an aside, it's interesting that ploughing has special words for the direction of the grain, but rebating doesn't, AFAIK.
BugBear

Hi BB,

My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet.
Whether this is the same nationally or world wide I don't know, but down this neck of the woods (at least, back in late 70s!) that was the case.

cheers,
Andy

Rebate and rabbet are just synonyms pretty much everywhere else in the English-speaking world though, aren't they?

Well, yes, but i'm speaking from a technical point of view of correct terminology as taught at City and Guilds level - at least it was taught to us that way at the college I attended, as mentioned previously, so I was merely passing that info on to BB who posed the question...
Doesn't mean a great deal to be honest other than to clarify a particular orientation of tool to grain, assuming it's a recognised standard description - much the same as the 'is it a flat back or flat face' debate with chisels and plane irons! :lol:

cheers,
Andy

 

[Jacob]

...My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet...

My tutors used to (try to) send us off to the stores to ask for long weights, tins of elbow grease and self hammering nails. :roll:

 

[andy king]

...My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet...

My tutors used to (try to) send us off to the stores to ask for long weights, tins of elbow grease and self hammering nails. :roll:

Yes, thanks for that. Most enlightening, a great help in finding an answer to the question posed...

Edit: You sure you didn't fall for it when they were teaching how to sharpen? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[bosshogg]

As an aside, it's interesting that ploughing has special words for the direction of the grain, but rebating doesn't, AFAIK.
BugBear

Hi BB,

My tutors taught me that working with the grain its a rebate, across the grain its a rabbet.
Whether this is the same nationally or world wide I don't know, but down this neck of the woods (at least, back in late 70s!) that was the case.

cheers,
Andy

Was he American?

Rebate - From Middle English rebaten, to deduct - Has always applied to both end and long grain in my field and profession, rabbet has always signified Americanism to the word. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is that the procedure is recognised...bosshogg

I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.
Albert Einstein (hammer)