Multi-Woodworking Machine made by Modern Woodworking Machine

[Malcolm Webster]

Hello,

I have purchased a Multi-Woodworking Machine Company made by Modern Woodworking Machine, Leicester.

It's the mother of all machines, with a saw, thicknesser, Side router.. it is really heavy!!

It will be a wonderful machine I am sure, however I need a little advice.. I understand that its a 3 Phase, 4 HP machine, but I don't know if its a 240v or what..

Does anyone out there know anything about this machine?.. Serial Number DS 196

I would be delighted to hear from anyone with their thoughts.

Regards, Malcolm

 

[Jake]

I understand that its a 3 Phase, 4 HP machine, but I don't know if its a 240v or what..

I don't know anything about the machine, but if it is 3-phase, it isn't 240v by definition - three phase in the UK is 415v.

If you want to run it off a normal domestic supply you'll either need to run it from a phase convertor or to change the motor(s).

'Side router' sounds like a slot morticer.

 

[DaveL]

Hi Malcolm,

Welcome to the forum.

Jakes comments are spot on for motor. 4HP is a biggish motor to run single phase, you will need at least a 16A supply for it. If you can look at the motor, does it have a standard foot mount or is it mounted by a flange? Foot mount motors are readily sourced but flange mounted motors are much harder to find.

 

[Losos]

Hi Malcolm,

First a warm welcome to UKW

Second, if you can look at the motor there should be a plate or label with some info on the beast. As mentioned by others, if it is 3 phase it'll likely be 415 volt (or thereabouts) This will require a 5 core cable (P1,P2,P3, N, Earth) Although the neutral is often not used. (Sorry I'm not able to explain that but I'm certain someone can)

Thirdly, where I am 3 phase is quite common in houses but in UK it's not so, likely you'll need to buy a converter (1 phase to 3 phase) which are available although I'm told it's not so efficient, meaning you use more power to achieve the same output from the motor.

 

[Scrit]

Hi Malcolm

As Losos says three phase is almost unknown in domestic properties here in the UK, and for that matter in some commercial ones as well.

As to 4-wire or 5-wire, the machine will almost certainly require 3-core plus earth which will be available as 4-core or 3-core with metal sheathing outer (which in turn is used as the earth by grounding to the frame of the machine). In my experience very few 3-phase woodworking machines require a neutral at all and it's generally only seen on heavier and much more recent machinery where there is some form of digital electronic read-outs or occasionally where a machine has low-voltage remote switching or certain forms of DC injection braking - neither of which will be the case on your Modern unless someone has updated the machine. If the machine has discrete (separate) motors, and I suspect that your machine will have either two or three motors, then it will probably prove much cheaper to buy a single-to-three phase inverter than to replace all the motors. If the machine has only one motor, then a motor replacement will be cheaper, although bear in mind that you will need to replace the contactor set and coil for an appropriately sized (i.e. higher amperage) 240 volt one.

In terms of size 4HP is 3kW, or probably 4.5kw starting load (rough guestimation), so your single phase wire to wherever the machine lives will need to able to support a 19 or 20 Amp 230 volt mains supply - so too big to run on domestic 2.5mm cable

Scrit

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Malcolm

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Fecn]

I don't know anything about the machine, but if it is 3-phase, it isn't 240v by definition - three phase in the UK is 415v.

I love things like this... You're right.. and you're wrong... both at the same time. Three-phase is actually 3x240V supplies running down the same wire. We have 3-phase supplies because it's how the windings on generators are made.. Each 240V supply is a sine wave, and the three different phases run 1/3rd of a cycle apart (120 degrees out of phase with each other) like this...

The black horizontal line on the graph (Time/ms) is where neutral would be. Between any phase and neutral, there's a normal 240V mains supply - Machinery which uses a neutral tends to be using different phases for different functions (e.g. one phase for a heater, one phase for a compressor etc)

Because the phases are 120 degrees apart (one third of a cycle), whenver one phase (e.g. yellow) reaches the top of it's peak (240V), the phase behind has just left the bottom of it's peak, and is on the way back up again (at around -175V). This means that the difference between the two phases is 415VAC.

So... depending on what you want to use it as, you can use three-phase as either multiple 240V circuits.. or multiple 415V circuits... If there's no neutral in the plug, it's 415V.

Hope that explains things a bit... Probably just adds confusion.

 

[Jake]

I love things like this... You're right.. and you're wrong...

Yes, I know, it's a simplification, but also accepted terminology. Whether 240V is 240V could be debated as well if you want.

... Probably just adds confusion.

Quite, and none of that helps with the actual point the OP needs to know, which is that his 3 phase machine isn't going to run on 240v single phase.

 

[Scrit]

Quite, and none of that helps with the actual point the OP needs to know, which is that his 3 phase machine isn't going to run on 240v single phase.

OK, then, no. Please see my previous response for possible options :lol:

Scrit

 

[Jake]

OK, then, no. Please see my previous response for possible options :lol:

Aaargh. I should have added "without either changing the motor(s) or running off a phase convertor as per my first post and Scrit's later post saying the same thing"

 

[Scrit]

8) :lol: :wink:

 

[DomValente]

Oh well that's much clearer then. :?

Dom

 

[Stoday]

You can have a three phase supply to your house/garage/workshop. Your local Distribution Network Operator will quote you for it.

Very unlikely to be the cheapest, but it is another option.

 

[Anonymous]

I love things like this... You're right.. and you're wrong... both at the same time. Three-phase is actually 3x240V supplies running down the same wire. We have 3-phase supplies because it's how the windings on generators are made.. Each 240V supply is a sine wave, and the three different phases run 1/3rd of a cycle apart (120 degrees out of phase with each other) like this...

The black horizontal line on the graph (Time/ms) is where neutral would be. Between any phase and neutral, there's a normal 240V mains supply - Machinery which uses a neutral tends to be using different phases for different functions (e.g. one phase for a heater, one phase for a compressor etc)

Because the phases are 120 degrees apart (one third of a cycle), whenver one phase (e.g. yellow) reaches the top of it's peak (240V), the phase behind has just left the bottom of it's peak, and is on the way back up again (at around -175V). This means that the difference between the two phases is 415VAC.

So... depending on what you want to use it as, you can use three-phase as either multiple 240V circuits.. or multiple 415V circuits... If there's no neutral in the plug, it's 415V.

Hope that explains things a bit... Probably just adds confusion.

fantastic explaination, certainly helps me to understand it better and explains to me how you can lose a phase in bad weather. Thankyou

 

[MikeBarnett]

As I understand it, and I'm not an electrician-

Your local electricity distribution company can usually install a three phase supply for you, if they want to.
Into your local 11000V distribution transformer goes three phase at 11000V and out of it comes 230V for dwellings, also at three phase. (400V might also emerge) In a road, each house will be on one of the phases in sets of three. So your house will be on a different phase to that of your neghbours.
This is why it's farly easy to get a 3-phase supply in your workshop. A friend in Burton has 3 phase in his shed/workshop.

The (EU harmonised) UK standard now is 230V and 400V, the old standard was 240V and 415V. The actual supplied voltages seem to still hover around 240V.
Old gear designed for 240V and 415V will generally work ok at the slightly lower voltage.

 

[Scrit]

Mike

It may be fairly easy in principle, but in practice the cost is high and they want you to be a business paying business rates, at least in this part of the world (YE/NORWEB)

Scrit