Mortise and Tenon

[clanger]

I wonder why there's so much reluctance by amateur woodworkers to invest in proper training?

When you see examples like this it's clear that face to face training drives you up the learning curve in leaps and bounds. But if you were to offer most hobbyists the choice between a week of training and some piece of Chinese tat machinery, then 99 times out of 100 they'd choose rubbish kit over solid skills.

Maybe people think the internet will take care of all their training needs? For a tiny disciplined and determined minority that's possibly correct, but for the majority the internet is more of a trap, with so many conflicting opinions and diversionary rabbit holes that most people just get spun around in circles rather than make any real woodworking progress.

I fully agree - when work permits, I like to enrol on the evening classes of Furniture Making at Chichester college (been too long as I'm now working in London). Being taught by ex-students that have gone on to become apprentices at Barnsleys etc. is great. The best (which you will never get from YouTube) is when you get something wrong - they will explain what went wrong, why it went wrong, and best of all the 'cheats' available to recover the situation.

<flame-suit>They also demonstrate and get you practising sharpening. Apparently, that causes some people difficulty :shock: </flame-suit>

Chris

 

[custard]

when work permits, I like to enrol on the evening classes of Furniture Making at Chichester college

I've met several ex Chichester students as well as the tutors, they're an impressive bunch. I'm you'll enjoy it and rocket up the learning curve.

Good luck!

 

[Tasky]

If one's purpose is to become better at woodwork, proper training is an excellent route.

I do not disagree in the slightest...!!

However, just as many cooking hobbyists cannot afford a series of masterclasses with Michel Roux Jnr or Raymond Blanc, many woodworkers cannot afford the same with a master craftsperson like Paul Sellers or David Charlesworth.

unfortunately for many people sourcing good quality hardwood appears to be an insurmountable obstacle.

Good quality, at affordable prices, at least.
For those starting out on a budget, they won't have the machines or tools and skills to dimension wood, so they're at the mercy of expensive merchants who charge a fortune for very small quantities of square-planed timber...

And yet, despite all this and despite knowing I haven't a clue what I'm doing - I see the OP's post and still feel a strong desire to crack out the toolbox and have a bash at doing the same myself!!

 

[custard]

For those starting out on a budget, they won't have the machines or tools and skills to dimension wood, so they're at the mercy of expensive merchants who charge a fortune for very small quantities of square-planed timber...

Tasky, there's no need to be at the mercy of anyone, especially given your location. You've got Tylers, Moss & Co, and Surrey Timbers all within an hour's drive. I'm a full time furniture maker, but at any of those yards you'd pay pretty much the same prices that I do.

It's also probably a mistake to try and skip past dimensioning your own timber by hand. If you stick to moderate sized projects it's not that arduous, and you actually use the same hand tool skills in dimensioning that you'll absolutely need for cutting joints, edging boards together, or checking your projects are assembled square and true.

 

[Tasky]

Tasky, there's no need to be at the mercy of anyone, especially given your location. You've got Tylers, Moss & Co, and Surrey Timbers all within an hour's drive.

Only heard of Tyler's before and I believe they rejected my quote as being thinner than what they can/will supply.

It's also probably a mistake to try and skip past dimensioning your own timber by hand. If you stick to moderate sized projects it's not that arduous,

I'm barely above fruitbox size, but even then I'm looking at a couple hundred.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I agree with Custard's post at the top of this page. I've had to learn from DVDs books and the internet. I like to think I've made a fair bit of progress but along the way I've experienced to greater and lesser degrees every one of the pitfalls he mentions. It's probably fair to say that solitary mistakes can be more dispiriting than when you make them in a group and you have to have the determination to carry on. So far, I've managed to get on one three day course and I learned at a far higher rate and in a much more focussed way than when alone. So courses are the way ahead if you have the money and can find the time.

By the way, Jamesbb, your pictures are extremely impressive to the point where they prompted me to have a look at David Charlesworth's website but I can see no mention of a specific mortice and tenon course. Could you shed some light?

 

[David C]

Aaaargh,

Promise to post some dates soon.

David

 

[Jacob]

1 to 1 seems a bit OTT! What does the teacher do whilst you are getting on with it? Crossword puzzles?

We had top notch training on a TOPs course (6 months accelerated C&G). One teacher and about 20 learners. It worked brilliantly mainly because there was a very strict and well established syllabus but also because the intake was staggered - you'd be working side by side with others at every stage of the course. You might be the only one at your stage in the syllabus. Place run like an open prison - strictly clocking in 8a.m. to 5p.m 5 days a week for 6 months.
One thing I learned from doing a proper traditional trade based course was that the mags I'd been reading were useless. Dumped several years worth of them, never bought one since! It's that which makes me so irritable about the various experts in the media and on youtube - some of them have no idea, some of them have managed to completely overwrite the tradition with made up garbage of their own - Cosman, Puchalski, come to mind; all that flattening/sharpening nonsense, the trouble it's caused, the time wasted, the spoiled tools!
Dave's mortices look good though and I agree with his ruler trick (except it's easier without the ruler :lol: ).

PAR tends to cost only a little more than sawn, but you certainly do need to be able to dimension your own . Always buy a whole piece - don't ask them to cut it up, unless you really don't expect ever to use up the remainder.

 

[thetyreman]

that is some great work, very neat and precise, you should be proud of that, face to face training definitely still has its place for sure.

So - if one-to-one training with an acknowledged teacher is "10", and pure text is "1" how do

class (6+ pupils) with teacher
text + diagrams
text + photos
text + supporting video
video

score?

BugBear

they all have their place, it's not easy to rate them with a score, and everyone's different, some teachers are better than others, things just seem to happen faster in a group with a teacher than any other way. In my case I've stuck with paul sellers as my main teacher, even though I've never met him or been on a course, he'd be the no1 choice because I'm already familiar with his sharpening methods and have a couple of his books which is actually what got me into woodworking.

 

[nabs]

I think for many people there is enough enjoyment in the process of discovering the information needed to become self-taught for it to be justification in its own right, even if it is not very efficient.

The advent of decent online video material has really transformed things for us DIYers, but as Custard has suggested elsewhere, it is not helpful when starting out to be presented with so many conflicting views on how to do things. Of course finding a single preferred online 'teacher' is a big help with avoiding these conflicts, but The problem until only recently was that the information was so piecemeal from the genuinely experienced woodworkers that it was difficult to get a rounded introduction.

For hand-tool users we are in a much better position to be successful thanks to the work of eg. Paul Sellers and Richard Maquire who are building up a catalogue of skills-building video series that cover lots of different ground and allow you to proceed at your own pace in a structured manner. Also, although not a very fashionable viewpoint, I think being prepared to stump-up for good quality paid-content from people like this is part of the answer to ensuring that a consistent, structured approach to learning is available.

Having said that there are some obvious disadvantages to working without someone occasionally looking over your shoulder - from my limited experience I would select the following from Custard's list, in order of seriousness:

* maintaining standards - it is actually quite hard to know what is 'good enough' at the beginning and needs a lot of discipline to start something again when you do realize it is not up to snuff. This would be a non-issue if you needed to get it past your tutor.
* feedback - although I must come across as a Mr Maquire 'fan-boy' what he does very well is to continually describe basic techniques as if it were the first time he had mentioned them - this repetition really helps. However, it is still not a replacement for someone saying 'nope - not like that' (and then showing you). cue much pausing/rewinding of video!

 

[Tasky]

I think for many people there is enough enjoyment in the process of discovering the information needed to become self-taught for it to be justification in its own right, even if it is not very efficient.

Until someone comes up with a definitive list of what basics you need to 'discover', though, it will remain pretty inefficient.

Also, although not a very fashionable viewpoint, I think being prepared to stump-up for good quality paid-content from people like this is part of the answer to ensuring that a consistent, structured approach to learning is available.

You'd think... but I seem to have found paid content offered by several skilled artisans, who also 'just happen' to have their own range of highly priced tools, too.... I'm not so much a fan of that.

However, it is still not a replacement for someone saying 'nope - not like that' (and then showing you). cue much pausing/rewinding of video!

This, IMO, is the biggest reason to attend a course. A teacher can be so good that mere words are enough to convey what they're teaching, which is only improved if they do a video that shows you it visually and audially too.... But only a second pair of eyes (preferably with 50 years experience behind them) can correct your own errors.

 

[nabs]

You'd think... but I seem to have found paid content offered by several skilled artisans, who also 'just happen' to have their own range of highly priced tools, too.... I'm not so much a fan of that.

I am sure there are some out there, but not true of the two I mentioned.

re. structure, I am not sure that there needs to be a prescribed list - the basics are pretty obvious (sharpening , measuring and marking, preparing timber) and you'd think the rest (tools and techniques, wood selection, joinery etc etc etc) would be learnable by progressing through a number of projects starting with simple designs/cheap materials and gradually working up to more tricky/expensive.

Having said that I would be most interested to hear how apprenticeships were structured (not strictly comparable, of course, but might provide some ideas).

 

[Tasky]

re. structure, I am not sure that there needs to be a prescribed list - the basics are pretty obvious (sharpening , measuring and marking, preparing timber) and you'd think the rest (tools and techniques, wood selection, joinery etc etc etc) would be learnable by progressing through a number of projects starting with simple designs/cheap materials and gradually working up to more tricky/expensive.

Not always obvious - I'd never have known about using a shooting board until I came here, for example.
Tools and techniques of use also aren't always obvious unless someone shows you - I wouldn't have even known what a marking gauge was for!

 

[nabs]

apologies I was not very clear, I did not mean the basics were obvious in the sense that you don't need teaching how to do them (you do!) only that it is pretty clear what topics to learn about first (e.g sharpening, measuring and marking, timber prep - probably there are others!)