Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Paul Sellers wrote on the Tools for Working Wood Blog ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
Regards from Perth
Derek
Mortice chisels
- Thread starter chaoticbob
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swagman
Established Member
Paul Sellers disclaimer is an interesting read; #-o
Home » My disclaimer
With the aim of delivering sound teaching to a broad range of people pursuing woodworking I write and present via as many avenues as I can. I am concerned that this may confuse my readers and viewers who may wonder who I am associated with.
That is why this page has been created; to make clear who I work for and why.
I am the founder and owner of New Legacy School of Woodworking. I also work for Rokesmith Ltd which trades as Woodworking Masterclasses. I write, teach and present for these two companies and this is how I earn a living.
I have many friends in woodworking and business. However, beyond these two, I have no obligations or interests either contractual or implied which would make me recommend or endorse any tool or service over another.
In the future I will be paid a small royalty on products that I have presented or written.
Page updated: 10 December 2014 https://paulsellers.com/my-disclaimer/
Home » My disclaimer
With the aim of delivering sound teaching to a broad range of people pursuing woodworking I write and present via as many avenues as I can. I am concerned that this may confuse my readers and viewers who may wonder who I am associated with.
That is why this page has been created; to make clear who I work for and why.
I am the founder and owner of New Legacy School of Woodworking. I also work for Rokesmith Ltd which trades as Woodworking Masterclasses. I write, teach and present for these two companies and this is how I earn a living.
I have many friends in woodworking and business. However, beyond these two, I have no obligations or interests either contractual or implied which would make me recommend or endorse any tool or service over another.
In the future I will be paid a small royalty on products that I have presented or written.
Page updated: 10 December 2014 https://paulsellers.com/my-disclaimer/
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
You can't take royalties and be disinterested. He's a bit confused.
But thats OK they all are. You read them and make up your own mind, and he is one of the better ones to read.
But thats OK they all are. You read them and make up your own mind, and he is one of the better ones to read.
Interesting quotes but I'm not sure what they have to do with the video. Being the best pigsticker you ever used doesn't really mean much if they aren't your preferred tool in the first place. That falls under the old saying 'the worst *** I ever had was wonderful.'
For some reason, I imagine a pigsticker might work better in green wood. I don't know. I don't build with it. Perhaps this explains their popularity 500 years ago. I've owned a pigsticker. I've cut mortises with a pigsticker. I thought, and still think, they pretty much stink at the job. A regular sash mortise chisel is much easier and faster to use (Marples must have made and sold tens of thousands of them), a plain bevel-edged chisel even better. It's easier to sink a little bit of steel into wood than a lot of steel. Levering out loose chips and material, as in the video, does not require a huge hunk of steel. Why? Well, because they're loose. They've been cut away from the neighboring wood. If you are exerting yourself, and beating and pounding, and making a lot of noise, disturbing the neighbors, not to mention the sleeping cat, and flailing around, and taxing a chisel to the breaking point something is not being done correctly. It's that simple. And it's all in the video. Unless you think Sellers is all about guile and obfuscation, then it's all in the video.
To the OP who is using bevel-edged chisels to chop mortises -- they will work and quite well. This fact may not square with the desire to buy something new but there it is anyway. Your first mortises are going to be lousy using anything except a dedicated mortising machine. The answer is not a shopping spree but more practice.
Or, we can drill and pare and do our best imitation of a dedicated mortising machine but in two steps. :wink: And if there is highly figured and swirling grain right where you'd like to have a mortise it could be a safer bet anyway. Or do a better job of stock selection the next time.
For some reason, I imagine a pigsticker might work better in green wood. I don't know. I don't build with it. Perhaps this explains their popularity 500 years ago. I've owned a pigsticker. I've cut mortises with a pigsticker. I thought, and still think, they pretty much stink at the job. A regular sash mortise chisel is much easier and faster to use (Marples must have made and sold tens of thousands of them), a plain bevel-edged chisel even better. It's easier to sink a little bit of steel into wood than a lot of steel. Levering out loose chips and material, as in the video, does not require a huge hunk of steel. Why? Well, because they're loose. They've been cut away from the neighboring wood. If you are exerting yourself, and beating and pounding, and making a lot of noise, disturbing the neighbors, not to mention the sleeping cat, and flailing around, and taxing a chisel to the breaking point something is not being done correctly. It's that simple. And it's all in the video. Unless you think Sellers is all about guile and obfuscation, then it's all in the video.
To the OP who is using bevel-edged chisels to chop mortises -- they will work and quite well. This fact may not square with the desire to buy something new but there it is anyway. Your first mortises are going to be lousy using anything except a dedicated mortising machine. The answer is not a shopping spree but more practice.
Or, we can drill and pare and do our best imitation of a dedicated mortising machine but in two steps. :wink: And if there is highly figured and swirling grain right where you'd like to have a mortise it could be a safer bet anyway. Or do a better job of stock selection the next time.
swagman":3vqocnfc said:
Perhaps it should be changed to "the best chisel that I have ever been paid to write about until the next one".
Though that statement may have been made before being paid. You can't get paid and be unbiased. You can't get free things and be unbiased, which is why the FTC in the US has rules requiring disclosure that you received something for free if you did and you are discussing said free item. Not that most people follow them.
CStanford":2apqc5wm said:
If we lived in the land of tools as they do, I think spending a fiver or tenner on an appropriate firmer could be excluded from shopping spree. Buying 300 pounds worth of brand new mortise chisels that are whiz-bang-hold-an-edge-forever-and-you-never-need-to-learn-to-sharpen-quickly-steel .... not so much. If a tool seems to need happening often, then I would learn to sharpen faster.
Here is Marc Adams, of the well-known (in the U.S. at least) Marc Adams School of Woodworking, cutting a mortise with what I believe may be a Berg bevel-edged bench chisel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohVYmDh2UME
It's a rather large mortise, and in poplar, but still...
Illustrates yet another approach to doing the work with a plain bench chisel.
There are companion videos on tenons and layout.
School website: https://www.marcadams.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohVYmDh2UME
It's a rather large mortise, and in poplar, but still...
Illustrates yet another approach to doing the work with a plain bench chisel.
There are companion videos on tenons and layout.
School website: https://www.marcadams.com/
CStanford":2q7vxmcc said:
Well, that is an approach I've never seen used or suggested anywhere else. He uses a chisel which is narrower than the mortice.
That means he takes two cuts in each position and still needs to cut the sides separately.
Ok, it works for him, but it looks very inefficient.
In the video he's cutting a through mortise which puts a premium on clean margins on at least one side of the mortise. You can't hit and hope you never get a runner or a little grain collapse at the margins.
It's probably not an approach that would have been used by the guys who chopped all the mortises in Chippendale's shop (or maybe it would have been who knows?) but for a one-off maker, in a one-man shop, making one piece of furniture at a time, I'm not sure when or where 'efficiency' comes in. If the whole project goes to pot at the joint cutting stage, time-wise, it was probably ill conceived on several fronts at the outset or destined to drag on regardless.
I would have drilled (with a brace and dowel jig) and pared a through mortise of that size but I definitely would outline the margins with a little chisel whack, very much like his approach. Anything other than perfectly straight and crisp margins spoils the look of a through mortise. That said, there would be virtually nothing to prevent one from using the same approach on a blind mortise and I suspect Adams does them pretty much the same way. It would be a lot faster in a setting where he's not providing commentary while doing the work and maneuvering the workpiece(s) for the benefit of camera angles and lighting.
If there's another way to maintain, if not practically guarantee, crisp margins on a through joint (even if using machines) I'd love to hear it. This is no different than the incised crosscut line on a tenon shoulder being the part of the joint that shows. What's visible is made by a knife, or a chisel registered against a straightedge.
It's probably not an approach that would have been used by the guys who chopped all the mortises in Chippendale's shop (or maybe it would have been who knows?) but for a one-off maker, in a one-man shop, making one piece of furniture at a time, I'm not sure when or where 'efficiency' comes in. If the whole project goes to pot at the joint cutting stage, time-wise, it was probably ill conceived on several fronts at the outset or destined to drag on regardless.
I would have drilled (with a brace and dowel jig) and pared a through mortise of that size but I definitely would outline the margins with a little chisel whack, very much like his approach. Anything other than perfectly straight and crisp margins spoils the look of a through mortise. That said, there would be virtually nothing to prevent one from using the same approach on a blind mortise and I suspect Adams does them pretty much the same way. It would be a lot faster in a setting where he's not providing commentary while doing the work and maneuvering the workpiece(s) for the benefit of camera angles and lighting.
If there's another way to maintain, if not practically guarantee, crisp margins on a through joint (even if using machines) I'd love to hear it. This is no different than the incised crosscut line on a tenon shoulder being the part of the joint that shows. What's visible is made by a knife, or a chisel registered against a straightedge.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
If it wasn't for all the chasing the stock around the bench top and putting it in and out of the vice over and over......I think it is a good forgiving technique. Perhaps all the to-ing and fro-ing was just for the demo, and he would normally clamp the stock down to the bench top, which I would do. I do think it is a good technique, though. Once the boundaries were established, it is likely that swapping to a mortice chisels and chopping full width would work well too.
I remember my high school woodwork teacher telling me off for setting the boundaries with a BE chisel before I chopped the mortice. I was 11 YOA and thought it was a good idea to prevent any splintering past the lines, which would have been pencil as we didn't have marking knives. (The long boundaries would have been gauged, but not the ends). He obviously just wanted me to chop as tradition dictated. Ive tried my best not to stick to tradition the rest of my life, if there is logically a better way. Many times, there are!
Mike.
If it wasn't for all the chasing the stock around the bench top and putting it in and out of the vice over and over......I think it is a good forgiving technique. Perhaps all the to-ing and fro-ing was just for the demo, and he would normally clamp the stock down to the bench top, which I would do. I do think it is a good technique, though. Once the boundaries were established, it is likely that swapping to a mortice chisels and chopping full width would work well too.
I remember my high school woodwork teacher telling me off for setting the boundaries with a BE chisel before I chopped the mortice. I was 11 YOA and thought it was a good idea to prevent any splintering past the lines, which would have been pencil as we didn't have marking knives. (The long boundaries would have been gauged, but not the ends). He obviously just wanted me to chop as tradition dictated. Ive tried my best not to stick to tradition the rest of my life, if there is logically a better way. Many times, there are!
Mike.
Yes, obviously a *too short* demo piece of stock that would have been difficult to clamp and not get in the way of the camera work if not the operation itself.
Other than 'registered' chisels there are no mortise chisels of the width he was making I don't think. I guess pigstickers max out at 3/8"? Don't know. That looked to be a 1/2" mortise but I'm not sure. My gosh a 1/2" pigsticker mortise chisel would weigh about seven pounds wouldn't it? :lol:
Other than 'registered' chisels there are no mortise chisels of the width he was making I don't think. I guess pigstickers max out at 3/8"? Don't know. That looked to be a 1/2" mortise but I'm not sure. My gosh a 1/2" pigsticker mortise chisel would weigh about seven pounds wouldn't it? :lol:
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
I only have registered and sash mortice chisels. Oh and some firmers. I'm a furniture maker not a blooming ships carpenter. Pigstickers are a bit crude for my tastes. That said, I don't often mortice by hand these days, occasionally for fun, or demos at school. Sometimes it is quicker for a one off but a hollow chisel morticer is my weapon of choice.
I must say, spending hundreds on LN or Veritas and the likes could get a nice bench top morticer. I don't see the sense in boutique mortice chisels.
Mike.
I only have registered and sash mortice chisels. Oh and some firmers. I'm a furniture maker not a blooming ships carpenter. Pigstickers are a bit crude for my tastes. That said, I don't often mortice by hand these days, occasionally for fun, or demos at school. Sometimes it is quicker for a one off but a hollow chisel morticer is my weapon of choice.
I must say, spending hundreds on LN or Veritas and the likes could get a nice bench top morticer. I don't see the sense in boutique mortice chisels.Mike.
Agree!
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
woodbrains":z60tvqme said:Hello,
I only have registered and sash mortice chisels. Oh and some firmers. I'm a furniture maker not a blooming ships carpenter. Pigstickers are a bit crude for my tastes. That said, I don't often mortice by hand these days, occasionally for fun, or demos at school. Sometimes it is quicker for a one off but a hollow chisel morticer is my weapon of choice.
Mike.
I do not find OBM chisels crude. (As an aside, I share Joel Moskovitz's preference for calling them this rather than their "pigsticker" nickname - just so we are referring to the same chisel). They are precision instruments in the right hands. One of the design features I came to recognise - when the abused vintage chisels were replaced with ones in good condition - was that sharp lands aid in cleaning up the sides of a mortice. Many of the vintage chisels have been derusted and have lost this design feature. Of course newer chisels, such as the RI and the Veritas, will have this feature since the blades have not been abused. The slicing action of the lands is less easy to replicate using a BE bench chisel since the latter is apt to twist slightly in the hand. Sellers is skilled and makes this look easy. I would expect that the average beginning woodworker would not be aware of what he is missing out on.
Regards from Perth
Derek
The crux of the issue is that neither the Follansbee mortise cut with a pigsticker, nor the Sellers mortise cut with the pigsticker (both highly experienced woodworkers) looked as well, or were done as quickly, as the one Sellers cut with a plain bench chisel. If the only thing in between is a little practice then that's a small price to pay, exceedingly small when considering the fact that everybody in this game has a set of bench chisels already. I don't believe that this is a skill that took Sellers (Marc Adams, et al.) years to develop, more like a dozen or so practice mortises, maybe less, sump'n like that?
Learning to hold, position, and strike a bench chisel without causing it to twist is a good skill to have -- one better learned sooner rather than later.
We have quality video of two (three counting Marc Adams) well-known and skilled professional craftsmen, who presumably work at speed for a paying clientele, or have done so in the past. It's not hard to compare the results and the video speaks for itself it seems to me.
Learning to hold, position, and strike a bench chisel without causing it to twist is a good skill to have -- one better learned sooner rather than later.
We have quality video of two (three counting Marc Adams) well-known and skilled professional craftsmen, who presumably work at speed for a paying clientele, or have done so in the past. It's not hard to compare the results and the video speaks for itself it seems to me.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
I thought it was pretty slow and fiddly, but it's difficult to know how much that was influenced by being filmed. I think efficiency is relevant. I am not making a living from my woodwork, but that does not mean I have unlimited time - sometimes we just need to get on with it and get a job done. A through mortise like that with at least one visible end is worth doing neatly though.
I am not sure the answer is new or second hand chisels. Clean mortises are a function of sharp chisels and technique. On technique there are three or four methods all have their place. The techniques demonstrated in the videos are ok. For half inch mortises I would drill out the majority of the waste and then trim the Mortice to size with a chisel.
Dedicated mortice chisels are good if you chop a lot of them by hand but as demonstrated an ordinary be chisel does an acceptable job
Dedicated mortice chisels are good if you chop a lot of them by hand but as demonstrated an ordinary be chisel does an acceptable job
To my eye, the bench chisel in the Sellers video did a better job. It was faster too.
G S Haydon
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In all three videos the best demo is the Sellers with the bevel edge. It's a concise demo that creates a mortise quickly.
Regard the OBM/Pig Stick I'm sure the best ones I have are tapered in their width too. For instance the 12mm is that width at the edge and more like 10mm at the bolster.
Regard the OBM/Pig Stick I'm sure the best ones I have are tapered in their width too. For instance the 12mm is that width at the edge and more like 10mm at the bolster.
