Milling Machine for Steam Engines

[Rhyolith]

Is there any particular benefit to verticals? or is it just personal preference?

 

[DTR]

Is there any particular benefit to verticals? or is it just personal preference?

They are generally easier to set the work up on, especially for drilling / boring holes or milling enclosed slots. If you're comfortable using a typical pillar drill then you'll probably find a vertical mill is quite intuitive.

Horizontals can fit huge cutting tools, and take a huge bite to match. That's great in an industrial setting where time is money, but not as useful for the home engineer. That's why verticals are overwhelmingly more common in small machines.

 

[Rhyolith]

Found a couple on eBay that seem quite small:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Milling-Mach ... 1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Centec-2-hor ... 1438.l2649

Either of these the sort of thing I should be looking for?

 

[TFrench]

The first one looks good - horizontal and vertical heads. The centec is the mk1 I think with the motor out to the side. Mine is on the original base that houses the motor as well. Its a much neater and more compact system. I saw a vertical head for one the other day on ebay, can't remember what it went for though.

 

[Farmer Giles]

A good looking centec 2b just went for £150 on the MIG welding forum. It is provisionally sold so worth keeping an eye on.

 

[chaoticbob]

Found a couple on eBay that seem quite small:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Milling-Mach ... 1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Centec-2-hor ... 1438.l2649

Either of these the sort of thing I should be looking for?

They both look nice, and (at the mo) well priced too. I'd agree that a vertical mill is more versatile - in theory you can do the same things, slower or faster, on either. It comes down to what you do most. It's difficult to know what machinery you need unless you have a a cut and dried plan for what you want to make though . My own journey in metal mangling started with a pretty vague idea that I wanted a lathe to - well make stuff! As I went on and became more ambitious I realised that I was grinding to a halt because I was putting off manually hacksawing a lump off a 3" steel bar - I'll do that tomorrow. And tomorrow. So I bought a metal cutting bandsaw which has now become an essential tool. I didn't see that coming!
Might it be best for you to start something you want to make on your lathe, then when you come up to a brick wall decide what machine you need make progress? It's frustrating at first because you have to wait, but over time you'll build a set of machines/accessories/tooling which meets your particular need.
Rob

 

[Rhyolith]

Found another one, this time really near me! Would be grateful for some thoughts again as to me this looks like exactly what I want.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Single-Phase ... Ciid%253A1

My principle concern is moving it. Apparently it weighs 1/5 a ton! How do I move something like that?

 

[Rhyolith]

I am going to view the one linke above tomorrow morning.

 

[TFrench]

That looks like an excellent piece of kit to me! An engine crane would easily lift that - I imagine you can hire one from somewhere, failing that they aren't earth shatteringly expensive. Kept vertical the weight is high up but it keeps the oil from running out of gearboxes etc. Make sure its well strapped down!

 

[Rhyolith]

Well I went and bought it, 907kg of milling machine for £750 :shock:

Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Its 1940s - 50s and apparently a high grade machine http://www.lathes.co.uk/milnesmiller/ (thanks DTR for finding that)

Spent most of today getting into my workshop with the help of the local farmer and the seller, never moved something this heavy before! Think I have slightly shocked myself by purchasing something so ridiculously large and heavy.

Its really quite dirty so I have started cleaning it up with paraffin... turns out its battleship grey under the dirt not black as I thought it was :lol:

The Dirt:
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Will post pictures of the clean machine when I finish... think it will look quite the part!

Something that crossed my mind already is lubcrication. It was and inbuilt oiling system for the bed (possible other bits too, but thats the bit thats been taking apart so far), a resource on top (not sure if this is for the oiling system. I assume it is), an oil feeder (like on the bigger Myfords) also on top and several large oil holes with screw caps. What sort of oil should I put in these? Is the engine oil I use for the Myford ok? Its also covered in grease nipples, will probably need to snatch the next grease gun I see at the car boot. What sort of grease should I use?

I found the original suppliers badge hidden under the dirt, anyone know them? Have not looked the name up yet.

Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

It runs nicely, though I have not fathomed how the gears work yet.

A nice bonus feature is the powered bed, think it can go both ways horizontal and up under power. I didn't need this, but it might save some effort :mrgreen:

My next thought is what do I need to get it functional. I came with several huge cutters (forgot to photograph those) all will massive morse tapers which screw in at the top of the machine, I am thinking some kind of collet attachment for smaller (and cheaper) bits might be a good idea? Also any good places to get bits from and any good ones for a beginner?

 

[Farmer Giles]

What a lovely machine! I love big old lumps like this - very jealous!

In terms of oil, most engine oils will be fine, especially the older variety 20w50 etc. The iso 32 hydraulic oil you can get from most farming shops is a good cheap alternative especially if it sups a bit.

Don't use some of the newer gear oils EP GL5 for example in old machines that are likely to contain brass/bronze components. They have a surfacing additive that works fine in all steel gearboxes but grabs brass etc, and can cause premature wear. It sticks to the surface, and is supposed to improve wear, but with soft metals it gets scuffed off and drags a bit of metal with it.

If you want to go vintage there are loads of oil suppliers, Withams, Millers, etc. If there are any old labels indicating what oil to use on the machine, you can usually find a very close modern equivalent, for example Shell Tellus 22 is easy, it is a ISO 22 gear oil and you can buy that. There is a place on the Wirral that will blend oil to any viscosity etc. I forget the name of the place now, there are probably others but they tend to want you to buy in quantity, 25l minimum.

But I would go for ISO 32 or 20w50 to begin with.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Rhyolith]

Thanks for that, I will check what the engine oil I already have is. It be good just to have one big vat for the Myford and the Milnes.

What about grease? It has a lot of grease nipples all over the place.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Nice machine, that.

Grease nipples - actually, they're probably not grease nipples, but oil nipples. Exactly the same principle, but use an oil gun with something like a medium viscosity straight lubricating oil (don't use engine oil, it has a high proportion of detergents and other additives that work very well in a high-temperature high-speed environment, but not so well in a low-temperature low-speed one).

You can get special way oils for machine tools, designed for use in high-pressure very low-speed places like the traverses of milling machines. Especially worth it on the vertical traverse (knee to column) because it'll stay put and not run off into the chip tray.

Keep your eyes peeled for a good milling vice. Won't be cheap, but don't be tempted by anything small and weedy. Half the secret of good results with a milling machine is a really rigid job-holding (and tool-holding) set-up.

 

[heimlaga]

Last winter I stumbled on a magnificent Värnamo horizontal and vertical combination mill for 500 euros. With digital measurements and all.
It weighed areong 3000 kilos and I had nowhere to put it and no money for repairs so I told an aquintance and he bought it. I rekon he ended paying at least 2000 more in parts and new spindles plus a vice and some tooling before he could make anything with it and I didn't have that amount of money either.

Instead I bought his old 14" metal shaper. He sold it for a very friendly price and held it for a year waiting until I had accumulated the little money he wanted. Just over scrap value. At 800 kilos or so it is light enough for my tractor to lift and it uses much cheaper tooling.
I rekon it will do 80% of the milling jobs I need. It is slow of cause but that doesn't matter much when it is a hobby.
The remaining 20% I can afford to pay a professional for.

 

[Rhyolith]

Grease nipples - actually, they're probably not grease nipples, but oil nipples. Exactly the same principle, but use an oil gun with something like a medium viscosity straight lubricating oil (don't use engine oil, it has a high proportion of detergents and other additives that work very well in a high-temperature high-speed environment, but not so well in a low-temperature low-speed one).

You can get special way oils for machine tools, designed for use in high-pressure very low-speed places like the traverses of milling machines. Especially worth it on the vertical traverse (knee to column) because it'll stay put and not run off into the chip tray.

There are two types of nipples I have found on the machine so far:

These domed ones (these are at the front just under table)
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

and these flat headed ones (this one is just under the table on the right hand side):
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Looking at the kind of connectors on my grease guns they seem like they would fit the domed variety of nipple quite well. Is this a coincidence or are they great nipples? There seem to be rather more of this sort of nipple than the flat kind.

If they are all oil nipples, how do I inject oil into them? I only the following that are designed (i think) to inject oil rather than just dump it, and I think only the latter is deigned for oil (can i use a grease gun for oil?):
Grease Guns by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Enots High Pressure Oil Can by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I terms of oil I could do with a recommendation of where to source it from and specifically which oil to get... I am assuming such oil would be better for my Myford ML4 too?

Keep your eyes peeled for a good milling vice. Won't be cheap, but don't be tempted by anything small and weedy. Half the secret of good results with a milling machine is a really rigid job-holding (and tool-holding) set-up

Have had a quick look on eBay, your right the machine vices are expensive! Looks like £100 budget is required to get anything decent. The table on the Milnes is 30x8" (bit over 8", see pic), I am assuming the spacing of the slots is standard, it came with plenty of bolts for the slots.

Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Is this the kind of thing I should be looking for: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pratt-Burnet ... 1438.l2649

 

[DTR]

On the Myford, NUTO 32 oil is recommended for every oiling point (regardless of whether its fitted with a grease nipple). If I remember tonight I'll take a photo of the stuff I use. In theory you should use way oil on the slides as it sticks rather than running off. However it is generally considered too sticky to use on small machines like a Myford. I don't know if your Milnes qualifies as a small machine!

As for vices, Harold Hall's write-up might be worth a read:

http://www.homews.co.uk/page288.html

More often than not, I follow his example and not use a vice at all (that's not to say you don't need one.....)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Certainly true that there are many ways to hold work on a milling machine, and having (or accumulating) a good range of clamps, tee-bolts and spacers and packing is well-nigh essential, but a good vice does hold an awful lot. The one you linked too would be just the job; other high quality makes to look out for are Abwood and Jones & Shipman, but there are plenty of others. You can buy fancy versions that swivel and tilt, but a plain one does about 95% of jobs perfectly adequately, and they tend to be more rigid. Try to find one that still has its handle - saves messing about with adjustable spanners.

Of the grease/oil guns you illustrate, the sort without handles could be cleaned out and used with oil - look up 'Wanner Oil Guns' for top quality current versions (at top prices, too!). Fill with oil, place nozzle over cleaned oil nipple, and push. The oil pressure generated pushes down the little steel ball in the oil nipple, opening the way for oil to enter what it's supposed to lubricate. When you stop pushing, the spring in the oil nipple reseats the ball, sealing the nipple against ingress of dirt. (In theory - stripping some older machines can reveal quite a lot of dirt in oilways.) Also worth bearing in mind is that even good quality oilguns tend to leak, so it's worth finding a jam-jar or similar to stand it in.

As you clean up the machine, you may find a plate on it somewhere that gives the recommended grades of oil for the various gearboxes and slides; that's not uncommon. Failing that, the NUTO 32 that DTR mentioned - or equivalent - would be a pretty good all-round bet.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Nuto 32 is just Mobil's brand of a decent ISO 32 hydraulic oil.

£10 a litre from the bay if you want nuto 32, or if you look up smith and allan iso 32 slideway oil then you can get 5 litres for 15 quid. I doubt if there is any noticeable difference. Just ISO 32 hydraulic oil from your local farm suppliers will do it.

I feel oil may become a bit like sharpening

BTW if you go on the Model Engineering forum, there are many members who use the older motor oils on their myfords, one has used GTX for 20+ years with no appreciable wear I don't suggest you necessarily do this but you won't do much/any damage if you do on an old thumper and is better than nowt until you get the correct oil.

In my Colchester Triumph 2000, I use ISO 32 in the headstock and screw cutting gearbox. I haven't done this randomly, Colchester recommended Shell Tellus 27 which is the same as Shell Tellus 32, the former is pre-ISO ratings. Shell Tellus 32 is ISO 32 hydraulic oil, and generic ISO 32 oil it is not expensive, which is good because the big lathe takes gallons. As produced, the headstock oil is pumped, I have added a filter to the system, basically a car filter, I did this after seeing the debris in the oil when I changed it, having said that, the previous owner had broken gear speed selectors so it was to be expected.

In the apron I use ISO 68 slideway oil as it is the modern equivalent of Tonna 33 as recommended by Colchester. It has a push button oiling system, so squirts oil in several locations if you press a plunger on the apron. However a friend suggested I use suds in the apron, why I said? It will find its way in there and fill up the apron anyway he says, it happens to all Colchesters, he's not wrong

So to cut a long story short, if your not brand conscious, then ISO 32 hydraulic oil will do most of what you want gearbox wise. ISO 68 is a bit gloopy and sticky but is good on slideways, especially vertical slideways. I would probably use ISO 32 on horizontal slideways but the 68 stays put if you have a damp atmosphere like I do. You can buy both from Smith and Allan and other similar suppliers.

EDIT - I forgot I have some really sticky ISO 220 for the vertical slides. ISO 68 is thickish but the 220 is like treacle, I go around with a take-away tray full of it around this time of year and lather up the vertical slide ways on the mills with a brush otherwise I get terrible condensation corrosion.

Cheers
Andy

 

[bugbear]

Its 1940s - 50s and apparently a high grade machine http://www.lathes.co.uk/milnesmiller/ (thanks DTR for finding that)

Having watched quite a few machine repair/renovation videos on youtube, a common theme is that the lubrication systems don't work, or don't work completely.

The systems are often some kind of pump, with logs of little tubes (made from ductile copper or brass) leading to places-that-need-oil.

These little tubes have a nasty habit of breaking, kinking, or getting pulled out from their attachments.

Have a good look around before running the machine, since running the machine without lubrication is an oft-mentioned caused of damage.

Turning by hand is recommended for testing - I've seen some hilarious results of testing pumped lube systems with the covers off.

BugBear

 

[Rhyolith]

Having had a closer look I don't think it actually has a lubrication system. I thought these tubes in the table were that, but I think they just come from nipples, though which nipples is still a mystery!

Under the Bed by Rhyolith, on Flickr]

Probably need to start trying them. Would it be a good idea to squirt paraffin down them to clean them out? and work out what goes where... I have only used WD40 so far to keep the moisture out and allow for some testing until I get some appropriate oil.

Also found a another problem to solve. I think one of the gear selectors is bent as it physically cannot go into any but one of the positions shown on the gear guide. See pictures.

Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I also found out that this thing has a powered down-feed for the headstock (obvious if you actually read the dials :roll: ), however I cannot get this to work. So tried to figure out how the power got to the down-feed wheel... which baffled me.

Henry Milnes Milling Machine by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I realised last night that it was flipping obvious, its inside that silver telescopic thing.... Oh my god #-o ! It turns out that there is no drive getting that far, so I think it know now where those random rusty gears that came with it are from! The gearbox on top of the headstock.