Mike's Teeth (Pictures)

[dunbarhamlin]

Ooo - just received one of MikeW's Kenyon dovetail saws.

It cuts like, well, I assume it cuts. I present it to the wood and shortly thereafter find a kerf of the required depth appears. Feels like it just melts through the wood.

The closest tool I have for comparison is an LN small crosscut saw (also pistol grip and same blade size.)

The LN has a heft that lets you know there's something serious on the end of your arm.
The Wenzloff feels like you're not holding anything - point and a kerf magically appears.

Cheap kitchen scales suggest there's actually only an ounce difference between the two (10 1/2 and 11 1/2)

The handles are quite different, with the Wenzloff being noticably more delicate, and the grip more rounded. It would also better suit a smaller hand, as the distant between top and bottom horns is a little less (only a 1/4" - but expect I'll relieve the lower horn at some point)

The grip angles are also different, with the Wenzloff presenting the blade maybe 6 degrees higher. (Of course this comparison may not apply to the LN dovetail)

Handle breadth is around 9/10" on the LN, 8/10" on the Wenzloff, and the grip is almost 1/4" deeper at the apex (mid heel of palm 'lump')

Guess that's enough break time - back to chisel lapping.

Cheers
Steve

 

[PowerTool]

Steve - that's just cruel ; such an interesting write-up and no pictures :lol:

Andrew (who would like to see some piccies,please [-o< )

 

[ByronBlack]

this thred is useless without pictures! :lol: :lol:

especially as I was considering buying the tool in question.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Heck, will see what I can do. Don't seem to be able to see a big chunk of the net today, including my stuff, so let's try this:

Wenzloff on the left, LN on the right:

Wenzloff Handle:

LN Handle:

 

[woodbloke]

I know someone else who's goning to get one of these soon :-$ [-( ...and it's not me 'cos I've got the LN :lol: - Rob

 

[Philly]

Congrats, Steve!
Mike sure makes a great saw! I just happen to have been playing with one last week - superb. Starts easily, cuts effortlessly, quickly and straight.
What more could you ask?
Philly

 

[Paul Chapman]

:-$ [-( I won't tell if you won't tell :-$ [-(

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Wenzloff on the left, LN on the right:

You suck :wink:
I'm not jealous at all :^o

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Now to learn to sharpen them - it'll make a nice change from flattening chisel backs. To which end I've got a tatty hand saw, and an old panel saw on the way to ease myself in to it.

 

[woodbloke]

Now to learn to sharpen them - it'll make a nice change from flattening chisel backs. To which end I've got a tatty hand saw, and an old panel saw on the way to ease myself in to it.

It's not the sharpening which is tricky (that just needs the right file and a saw horse) but the setting (when needed) as there isn't as far as I know, a saw set available commercially which gives a fine enough set (the one recommended by LN isn't made any more), however I'm thinking about doing a mod to my Eclipse saw set which will push the teeth out the right distance, not sure if it will work tho' - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm thinking about doing a mod to my Eclipse saw set which will push the teeth out the right distance, not sure if it will work tho'

That will be interesting, Rob. Over the years I've seen one or two articles about modifying saw sets so that they better suit particular saws, but in general it seems to be a rather neglected subject. And as you say, there isn't a very wide range of new ones available.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[AHoman]

Does anyone know how fine the finest set is on these:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... gory_Code=

I mean, I can see that the one goes up to 24 pt, but how little set can it be adjusted to? I'm assuming that being able to add just a minute amount of set is why the 42x is sought?
Mike, what do you use and recommend?
-Andy

 

[newt]

Rob first it was the marking knife now the saw, I am about to try and mod my Eclipse as my LN dovetail will soon need a sharpen and set.

 

[newt]

Rob, assuming your Eclipse is the same as mine, my current method is to place a washer (thickness as yet not decided) behind the rotating anvil (the part with the TPI numbers) this will then bring the moving anvil closer when the lever is operated. This looks a simple solution but reducing a suitable washer down to I estimate 5thou could be a tad time consuming.

 

[Alf]

Stealing BB's thunder, allow me to point would-be Eclipse modifiers here. Bear in mind that not all Eclipse #77s are created equal, and later models will probably require modification to the plunger to fit small teeth as well.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Does anyone know how fine the finest set is on these:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... gory_Code=

I mean, I can see that the one goes up to 24 pt, but how little set can it be adjusted to? I'm assuming that being able to add just a minute amount of set is why the 42x is sought?
Mike, what do you use and recommend?
-Andy

Funny--just taught a class on hand saw sharpening Saturday...

Don't believe everything you read about the range a saw set can, well, set. I do recommend those sets Joel sells. For the average person, a Somax will last them for a long, long time.

I have also never seen a saw set which doesn't improve with modifications, though. With the Somax/Eclipse, the anvil--the disc--does produce too much bend, but the effect is less "wrong" on full-sized handsaws. The Somax as well does not have a hardened steel anvil. I don't thik that is much a problem for the average person. I have taken a hardened anvil off another old set, reground it similar to the BB OT post [but without using a honing guide], drilled and tapped it to fit the Somax.

My oldest, however, uses an unmodified Somax.

More important to the actual set used, though, are a few random thoughts...

Use an even pressure.

Set the entire saw in one setting else you are likely to not use an even pressure.

If you use light pressure, even on very thin saw plate, the teeth will have a certain amount of "spring back" so the angle of the anvil isn't quite as important.

Think of the numbers on a saw set as relative index numbers--and not for matching to the number of PPI/TPI. In other words, if you last used the number 9 on the set for a 5 ppi rip saw and were pleased, use that number on the set again when setting is needed.

For fine teeth, even the highest number on the blue colored set will produce a bit too much set if using very much pressure--this is why grinding them is often a good thing. How the anvil of a Somax will take to grinding, I don't know. It may be chromed steel--but I assume it is pot metal [junk cast stuff].

For 19 ppi and above...just the residual burr from sharpening is about enough to provide clearance with a well waxed saw plate.

Probably have a few more thoughts...but I need more coffee...

Take care, Mike

 

[woodbloke]

Rob, assuming your Eclipse is the same as mine, my current method is to place a washer (thickness as yet not decided) behind the rotating anvil (the part with the TPI numbers) this will then bring the moving anvil closer when the lever is operated. This looks a simple solution but reducing a suitable washer down to I estimate 5thou could be a tad time consuming.

The problem as I see it is that you need to throw the anvil off to one side a tad more, simply putting a washer underneath just shunts the whole thing closer, not just one side. The way I've thought about for a while now is easier seen in the following pics:

The really cunning part is here. A standard washer of .7mm is shown and beside it a solder tag which is .46mm thick, and the washer of course is too thick. The trick is to fold the tag in two as so:

so that when it's fitted to the set it will throw the anvil out by .46mm on one side only as shown:

The net effect is to move the anvil closer to the striker pin so the deflection of the individual teeth ought to be about .5mm less than the standard setting at the smallest set of the gauge, but I've not tried it on a saw and have no idea if I'm talking out of my Easter bunny hat :lol: , but in principle the idea ought to work - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Looks good, Rob. Be interesting to see how it works when you've had a chance to try it out.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[AHoman]

Funny--just taught a class on hand saw sharpening Saturday...

Thanks for the extensive post on saw sets.
I think a class on this is a great idea, since it strikes me as something that I would learn more easily by seeing someone do it, then having them guide me through it on a saw.
-Andy

 

[bugbear]

The mods on the #77 need some thought.

If you observe the action NOTHING happens until the punch(*) carrier hits the anvil. This clamps the saw-set to the blade, and is controlled by the large spring in the bore.

The saw is now hard up against the centre (flat portion) of the anvil.

Subseqently, the punch will continue to move, bending the tooth over until it can go no further, since the far side of the tooth (opposite the punch) contacts the anvil.

It is thus apparent that the ONLY things that effect the amount of set, and height of the set on the tooth, are the position of the start of the bevelled edge on the anvil, and the angle of bevel (**). The former is "dialable", but the latter is built in.

BugBear

(*) I'm calling the pointy thing that actually moves the teeth the punch.
(**) unless you want nasty problems, the angle of the pounch face must match the angle of the anvil bevel.