Meaningful debate

[Mark A]

a few much cheaper interventions could save us a lot of money.

Culling?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Neutering.

 

[Jacob]

a few much cheaper interventions could save us a lot of money.

Culling?

Expensive. Hangmen and the judicial process cost a bomb. Never worked as a deterrent though it'd prevent repeat offences (assuming you'd got the right chap, which was never 100%)

Neutering.

Criminal tendencies aren't inherited (in spite of the propaganda) and anyway you could still charge around being an ars&hole, without your bits

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Criminal tendencies might not be transmitted genetically, but they are certainly familial traits. *0% of the crime in our area is committed by members of 4 or 5 families.

That was meant to be 80%.

 

[monkeybiter]

80% ?

 

[bugbear]

Criminal tendencies might not be transmitted genetically, but they are certainly familial traits. *0% of the crime in our area is committed by members of 4 or 5 families.

A propensity (not a certainty) to some criminal behaviour IS genetic (and hence transmitted)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29760212

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, I meant 80% - I got called out and posted without proofreading.

 

[RogerBoyle]

After 6 weeks I received a letter stating that after a thorough investigation it was decided that there was insufficient evidence against the People involved and that two of them had just been re examined by a Doctor and had been confirmed to be to ill to work and in the opinion of the council as they had failed to find any evidence to prosecute them they considered the matter dealt with .....

Glad to hear it!
I was on the other end of this sort of thing many years ago. We were living in a semi derelict cottage (under improvement!) and often driving around with our young family in a scruffy van, obviously not "at work".
We found out on the grapevine that a lot of the locals thought we were on benefits and living the life. I don't know if anybody tried to inform on us but they would have got the same response "insufficient evidence" because in fact we were running a successful small business from home perfectly legitimately, and paying tax etc etc. A lot of our time out in the van was to and fro out-workers with part finished items, and also general fetching and carrying, sales trips etc.

There is a lot of that about - curtain twitching and inaccurate (malicious) assumptions being made.

Meanwhile tax dodgers get away with many millions and there are reports this week of MPs fiddling their housing benefits. HSBC gets away with helping drug cartels and terrorists, mis-selling in general and nobody ends up in prison.
The pathetic twerps at the bottom end of the system are nothing in comparison. Many of them just desperate and falling in between bureaucratic traps but wanting nothing much more than somewhere to live, a quiet life and proper jobs.

Selective Quoting Again Jacob

If you had actually read and understood What I posted you would have realised this wasn't about some random family milking the system
This was individuals of a foreign nationality that had been claiming benefits and working at the same time as well as the taxi firm employing Illegal immigrants.

Or more likely you understood perfectly well and decided to carry on in your usual manner


Two years ago in one of your posts you tried to twist what I had posted about my one and only experience with the benefits system as a claimant So make your mind up I'm either trying to milk the system or I'm a curtain twitching busybody LOL

Yes I do get the argument that the Country should be chasing tax Dodgers bla bla bla as does most of the population... BUT We should also be helping those that need the help rather than those who make a career out of abusing it....

 

[monkeybiter]

The OP referred to the question of 'Have benefit sanctions worked?'. Chasing tax dodgers is vitally important to the country, but it's outside of the scope of this question.

Or maybe the real question was/is 'Could we manage to have an adult discussion amongst ourselves?', the answer seems to be 'yes' so far. Opposing views and detours, but fairly well behaved. Again, so far.

 

[Baldhead]

"those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns" Not always.
Many if not most of them in this area are there because it pays them and suits them. We are overrun with Poles (and good luck to them) doing jobs that our idle would lose money taking.

So are you saying that the people in your area should have sanctions imposed on them?

 

[Baldhead]

No, Jacob - I wasn't entitled to anything, I was working and not in a council house.

I don't understand how you were working and we're making less than the benefit claiments were getting, yet you didn't quailify for any benefit yourself?
Are you suggesting that benefit claiments only live in council houses?

Stew

 

[Baldhead]

My friend, a GP, says he knows perfectly well that half the sickness and invalidity claimants he sees are fraudulent but as he works 12hr. days and 8hrs. of that is paperwork the last thing he needs is more paperwork so he signs them off as if he doesn't they'll just see someone else who will.

You are actually saying that a health care professional assists a fraudulent claim, this is precisely why RogerBoyle thinks reporting benefit fraud is a waste of time. Using the excuse 'if he doesn't they'll just see someone else who will' is a cop out.

Stew

 

[Phil Pascoe]

1/ Yes
2/ I had some assets and I didn't have ten children.
3/ He's better things to do than embark on a one man crusade to change the system.

 

[Baldhead]

49 vulnerable benefit claiments died in the last 3 years, that is unacceptable, all to often people only see the negative side of things, programs such as Benefit Street create an enormous predujice against millions of people, it's gutter TV, produced to shock.

One trust runs over 1400 food banks, this in its self must show there is something fundamentally wrong with the system, imposing sanctions only creates greater financial problems for the most vulnerable in society.

Stew

 

[Baldhead]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

There is nothing wrong with disabled people working, this is not illegal.

Stew

 

[Baldhead]

The OP referred to the question of 'Have benefit sanctions worked?'. Chasing tax dodgers is vitally important to the country, but it's outside of the scope of this question.

Or maybe the real question was/is 'Could we manage to have an adult discussion amongst ourselves?', the answer seems to be 'yes' so far. Opposing views and detours, but fairly well behaved. Again, so far.

My main question was Have benefit sanctions worked, I didn't want a mod to lock the thread because someone said, Thatcher this or Blair that, hence the 'Could we have an adult discussion amongst ourselves, I wanted a proper debate, which I think we have managed, although I am a little concerned at some of the posts that have been made.

Stew

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

well....to be honest. My reading of the riddle is that certain protagonists are doing their level best to wind people up but no-one is biting (for the most part) which is a step forward from last spring I have to say. At that time whether the issue was sharpening or politics, certain folks would deliberately lob hand grenade after hand grenade into the debate just to get a rise out of people.....and it worked! People, were naïve enough to take the comments at face value and take a (personal) pot shot back and it quickly deteriorated into an insulting brawl.

This time, the notable difference is that folk seem to have learned NOT to be drawn so they're not taking counter pot shots. So...one side of the debating society appears to have wised up. It would be nice if the other side would...but I fear that may be asking a little too much!

 

[RogerBoyle]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

There is nothing wrong with disabled people working, this is not illegal.

Stew

It is when they do not declare it

 

[RogerBoyle]

49 vulnerable benefit claiments died in the last 3 years, that is unacceptable, all to often people only see the negative side of things, programs such as Benefit Street create an enormous predujice against millions of people, it's gutter TV, produced to shock.

One trust runs over 1400 food banks, this in its self must show there is something fundamentally wrong with the system, imposing sanctions only creates greater financial problems for the most vulnerable in society.

Stew

Agreed 100 %
Unfortunately the ones that really need the help are very rarely the ones that receive it