Meaningful debate

[Jacob]

..... Housing is a basic human need.

Agreed. AND better housing reduces the burden on the NHS in the form of lower ill-health and ability to be cared for at home, the cheapest way and in a lot of cases a personal preference.

Brian

And better housing is the single biggest thing to improve the quality of many peoples' lives at all ages - having somewhere safe, warm, dry, to do your own stuff, over and above merely surviving. It's "investment in human capital" as they say. As also is good rates of benefits - we don't people to be struggling to survive it's pointless and unnecessary.

 

[Jacob]

It's not a life style choice. You wouldn't chose it would you?

Irrelevant what I'd choose; assuming everyone has the same aspirations, motivations or even personal morals as ones-self seems either ignorant or arrogant.

so that's a NO then? :lol:

 

[doctor Bob]

My BIL has chosen to live on benefits for the last 25 years. It most certainly is a lifestyle choice, he has no intention to ever apply for a job.

 

[monkeybiter]

It's not a life style choice. You wouldn't chose it would you?

Irrelevant what I'd choose; assuming everyone has the same aspirations, motivations or even personal morals as ones-self seems either ignorant or arrogant.

so that's a NO then? :lol:

If you re-read my answer you'll maybe see that it wasn't a NO, a YES or even a MAYBE.
I have been constantly employed since before I left school, apart from Uny. I've had concurrent part time jobs, soul destroying low-paid jobs, and jobs I subsequently find moraly regrettable. But, again, my choices are irrelevant. The topic is a generalised mass of people who can't all be assumed to be the same, they certainly can't be assumed to all be as potentially hard working as you'd like to believe, or are yourself.

 

[RogerBoyle]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It would appear that the only place in the UK this does not happen is Middleton by Wirksworth.

 

[finneyb]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

I think you need http://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

Brian

 

[Logger]

I spent 20 years working in the recruitment industry and the number of people registering with recruitment agencies to ensure they kept their benefits was incredible. After they registered, we would soon afterwards get a form to complete for the benefits agency. The form asked when they had registered, but that was it. It did not ask if they had turned down temp work or job interviews. The most annoying thing was that after spending time and effort registering these people who would tell you that would take any work available, after registering them, they would happily tell you that they only registered to avoid losing benefits and had no interest in getting a job. Some used to brag how much they got.

I know that there are people are genuine need benefits to keep a roof over their heads, but unfortunately there are and will always be people who will abuse the system. Some may call this fraud, others i guess a stroke of genius.

A chap near where i live suffers with the worst case i idleitus (a severe desease diseas) i have ever seen. He came so close to actually working, he claimed that he was bitten by a spider that has caused his hand not to work (i kid you not). To top it off, he has managed to claim incapacity benefit and disability living allowance into the bargain.

 

[RogerBoyle]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

I think you need http://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

Brian

Total and complete waste of time........... Unfortunately

 

[Jacob]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

Nobody is condoning fraud. But there have been studies done on these sorts of stories and more often than not the truth is not that simple.

 

[doctor Bob]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

Nobody is condoning fraud. But there have been studies done on these sorts of stories and more often than not the truth is not that simple.

Exactly, the poor *******s can only afford to go to Tenerife or costa del sol........... got to feel for them

 

[finneyb]

I know of at least a dozen people that over the last 25 years have made living on benefits a lifestyle choice.
At least five of them carry out work (cash in hand) by delivering fast food all week ,I know of others that claim disability and also work as taxi driver's for a local company.
I also know of a family that have been abroad every year for the last 6 years and all claim benefits

So yes for some benefits is a way of life

I think you need http://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

Brian

Total and complete waste of time........... Unfortunately

Have you tried it?

 

[RogerBoyle]

Yes

 

[Jacob]

Yes

You reported people for suspected fraud - what happened?

 

[RogerBoyle]

After 6 weeks I received a letter stating that after a thorough investigation it was decided that there was insufficient evidence against the People involved and that two of them had just been re examined by a Doctor and had been confirmed to be to ill to work and in the opinion of the council as they had failed to find any evidence to prosecute them they considered the matter dealt with

The council had been given high Quality video of all the persons complained about showing them driving taxis and walking without the use of Crutches or Zimmer frames. over a 7 week period. as well as dates and times.
And before you all start to think I'm a Curtain twitcher lol The video, Logs etc. were all given to me by a neighbouring business after I came out of Hospital with my Back Problems

Instead I reported them to the Immigration Department and supplied the same documentation... after 18 days the taxi firm was raided by Immigration officers from East Midlands ... I know for a fact that 3 were deported and 4 others just disappeared from the public view before action could be taken against them( probably to Staffordshire LOL)

The taxi firm was I believe supposed to have been prosecuted but So far I haven't heard of it been prosecuted.
My Source at the Council later told me that there was no repercussions for the councils Investigation and I shouldn't hold my breath as things will never change LOL

 

[Jacob]

After 6 weeks I received a letter stating that after a thorough investigation it was decided that there was insufficient evidence against the People involved and that two of them had just been re examined by a Doctor and had been confirmed to be to ill to work and in the opinion of the council as they had failed to find any evidence to prosecute them they considered the matter dealt with .....

Glad to hear it!
I was on the other end of this sort of thing many years ago. We were living in a semi derelict cottage (under improvement!) and often driving around with our young family in a scruffy van, obviously not "at work".
We found out on the grapevine that a lot of the locals thought we were on benefits and living the life. I don't know if anybody tried to inform on us but they would have got the same response "insufficient evidence" because in fact we were running a successful small business from home perfectly legitimately, and paying tax etc etc. A lot of our time out in the van was to and fro out-workers with part finished items, and also general fetching and carrying, sales trips etc.

There is a lot of that about - curtain twitching and inaccurate (malicious) assumptions being made.

Meanwhile tax dodgers get away with many millions and there are reports this week of MPs fiddling their housing benefits. HSBC gets away with helping drug cartels and terrorists, mis-selling in general and nobody ends up in prison.
The pathetic twerps at the bottom end of the system are nothing in comparison. Many of them just desperate and falling in between bureaucratic traps but wanting nothing much more than somewhere to live, a quiet life and proper jobs.

 

[Woodmonkey]

After 6 weeks I received a letter stating that after a thorough investigation it was decided that there was insufficient evidence against the People involved and that two of them had just been re examined by a Doctor and had been confirmed to be to ill to work and in the opinion of the council as they had failed to find any evidence to prosecute them they considered the matter dealt with .....

Glad to hear it!
I was on the other end of this sort of thing many years ago. We were living in a semi derelict cottage (under improvement!) and often driving around with our young family in a scruffy van, obviously not "at work".
We found out on the grapevine that a lot of the locals thought we were on benefits and living the life. I don't know if anybody tried to inform on us but they would have got the same response "insufficient evidence" because in fact we were running a successful small business from home perfectly legitimately, and paying tax etc etc. A lot of our time out in the van was to and fro out-workers with part finished items, and also general fetching and carrying, sales trips etc.

There is a lot of that about - curtain twitching and inaccurate (malicious) assumptions being made.

Quite right. There seems to be an awful lot of "my neighbour knows this bloke who....." Etc. Mostly anecdotal or hearsay. The actual cost of people falsely claiming benefits is miniscule compared to the billions of tax dodged by large corporations etc

 

[Jacob]

I've just watched a local TV production entitled, 'Have benefit sanctions worked?' Could we manage to have an adult discussion amongst ourselves?

Stew

There you go then Stew - a fairly calm discussion so far!

I think there is a reason for this.
Following all that TV stuff; "Shameless" "Benefit Street" "The Romanians are Coming" "Raised by Wolves" (very watchable this one!) whilst initially stirring up a good deal of knocking of the poor, it's gone full circle and a lot of people are a good deal more sympathetic, especially when comparing and contrasting with the disgusting huge frauds and fiddles going on at "higher" levels.
You still get the occasional nutter in the pub going on about "single mothers on benefits" etc but it's very much on the decrease.
Times are changing.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My friend, a GP, says he knows perfectly well that half the sickness and invalidity claimants he sees are fraudulent but as he works 12hr. days and 8hrs. of that is paperwork the last thing he needs is more paperwork so he signs them off as if he doesn't they'll just see someone else who will. He maintains that they would ultimately be unemployed anyway as most of them are unemployable.

 

[Jacob]

My friend, a GP, says he knows perfectly well that half the sickness and invalidity claimants he sees are fraudulent but as he works 12hr. days and 8hrs. of that is paperwork the last thing he needs is more paperwork so he signs them off as if he doesn't they'll just see someone else who will. He maintains that they would ultimately be unemployed anyway as most of them are unemployable.

He's probably doing us all a favour then.
Being unemployable (for whatever reason - "being an obnoxious moron" is only one of many possibilities) IS a handicap however you look at it. Keeping them off the streets is a good idea we don't want them turning to crime, drugs, prostitution. They'd spoil our lives as well as their own.
"It costs £65,000 to imprison a person in this country once police, court costs and all the other steps are taken into account. After that it costs a further £40,000 for each year they spend incarcerated". - a few much cheaper interventions could save us a lot of money.