Making large wooden garage door

[Wilson joinery]

Hi everyone

I’m after some advice please on making a large wooden garage door that will be hung on large hook and band hinges. I’ve attached a drawing to try and demonstrate what I’m trying to achieve and how I was going to make it.

The measurements are approximate and there will be 2 of these to be made.

A couple of queries though:

I was planning to have 4 14x170mm dominoes at the end of each rail, so 24 dominoes in total for each door. Will this be ok and would I need to consider pegging them as well?

For the tongue and groove boards do I need to account for movement when I attach to the rebate in the rails? (Leave a slight gap when glueing them up?).

For the braces what’s the best way to fix these to the rails and/or stiles? For the last ledge and brace door I made I just countersink a hole and screwed into the stiles and fitted a plug to hide the screw. Does this sound like an ok method? Would it be better to fix these braces to both the stiles and the rails in this way?

I should also say that this will be made from oak.

Many thanks
Pete

 

[johnnyb]

It seems a lot of messing with all those dominoes tbh. Id also put the t and g edge into a groove. Nailing ins ok but they will fall out down the line. The groove allows some room for movement as well as this is what cause these big doors to fail. A wedgded through tenon provides proof against sag as well as your braces and resists that push of t and g expansion (a bit). I like to beef up all my members a bit as well. All a bit ott if your not charging much tbh. I usually advise to get a roller door.
Check out ebay and advise how they make them so cheaply. Id love to know. The very reason these doors last is because they were well made.

 

[Wilson joinery]

Thanks johnny

I’d thought about using proper through tenons but don’t have a mortiser and don’t have a drill press either for removing the majority of the waste although I’d look to get a drill press as been after one for a while. I’ve tried cutting mortises by hand in the past and I’m too slow and not great hence why I’d thought about using my donino machine.

How do you make the wedges for the tenons by the way? Is there a specific size they should be in relation to the slots that are cut in the tenon?

Cheers
Pete

 

[Cabinetman]

The braces as you have them are pushing outwards and put more strain on the M&T joints, Quick Look online found this arrangement, different style of door I know but it shows how the outward forces work.

As @johnnyb said grooves would be better, not suggesting this - but unless the planks are covering the framework completely you will always get water running down the planks into the groove causing rot.

 

[johnnyb]

The wedges were often cut from the tenon itself as its the right width! No slots are cut in the tenon. The taper is in the stile and its whacked in. I cut the using a wedge jig on a bandsaw.

 

[AJBaker]

I'd recommend having a look at this book: https://lostartpress.com/collections/books/products/doormaking-and-window-making

I got the PDF version and it's been invaluable for making doors. The techniques are over 100 years old, but the knowledge in this book is a solid foundation for door making.

Looking at your design, it seems similar to a framed ledge door, but a bit more complicated.
Here's a picture of the front, back, and side profile of a framed ledge door (according to this book):

Basically you make a thick frame with the stiles and top rail, and the other thinner rails/ledges are then morticed into the stiles. The tongue and groove boards then get nailed/screwed to the ledges. If you make this, you could try making proper mortice and tenons for the top rail, and do the rest with two dominoes per ledge. Even if it takes a while to make the mortice and tenons by hand, you only need to make two.

As for the bracing:
Avoid the top of the brace touching the stile, as it might force it out of the rail. Better to just have it touch the rail. Also, the book recommends having the braces in a line from the bottom to the top like this:

 

[Katomi woodsmith]

It’s worth the time to cut the mortise and tenon joints. Use brass screws with a dab of grease when putting them in
The non hinge side has the tend to sag over time so the bracing supports the open edge. All my joints are hand cut
The gate is not braced but still has m&t joints

 

[johnnyb]

How about making the mortise using the domino the squaring up. Without the right tackle(morticer, tenoner and spindle ) it will take a while in oak being honest. There also quite heavy(understatememt) so moving them becomes a job. Never mind the costs involved. Im normally(well over) £3000 for a fitted oak door /frame. Its all eminently doable but issues arise beyond the simple manufacture. Ive made some simple(fairly narrow) batten garage doors from sapele using pretty wide straight boards and there solid and simple but look cool.

 

[HOJ]

For a utilitarian garage door I would look at how @AJBaker has described for a start, keep it simple, and have full length planking on the front, with a side/stile and top/rail frame, the mid and bottom rails are set behind the cladding planks, using barefaced tenons into the the stiles with your current design water will wick up the end grain and soon lead to rotting out.

As @johnnyb said If need be use the domino to cut mortices, but you'll still have to find a way of making the tenons, back to old school ways maybe..

With regards the planks, on ones I've made in the past, I used a half lap type joint on the boards, rather than a t & g, and fixed them from inside with SS screws, set in grooves in the rails and a strip planted in to cover them.

Happy to draw it up if you need to know more.

The other point to note is your stock size of your frame @ 50mm, best check your supplier for their stock sizes as you may find the next size up will be 65mm, that's a lot of waste.

 

[AJBaker]

It’s worth the time to cut the mortise and tenon joints. Use brass screws with a dab of grease when putting them in
The non hinge side has the tend to sag over time so the bracing supports the open edge. All my joints are hand cut
The gate is not braced but still has m&t joints

Nice gates! I especially like the smaller one. Dead simple, but looks solid and very handsome.
Only quibble are the stickers on the straps, what are they?

 

[johnnyb]

Let us know how your getting on!
Probably take me 3 or 4 days if i had to make the t and g(its best as you dont have slivers ie cut boards) but takes much longer.

 

[Doug71]

That is a big door, think I'd be looking at using some larger section timber.

 

[Katomi woodsmith]

Sm gates.
The stickers are the price stickers. The gates were designed to open the full width of the gate opening. I was looking at a design, to solve a number of problems. I watched an old cowboy film. Hence the bat wing gates

 

[Wilson joinery]

I'd recommend having a look at this book: https://lostartpress.com/collections/books/products/doormaking-and-window-making

I got the PDF version and it's been invaluable for making doors. The techniques are over 100 years old, but the knowledge in this book is a solid foundation for door making.

Looking at your design, it seems similar to a framed ledge door, but a bit more complicated.
Here's a picture of the front, back, and side profile of a framed ledge door (according to this book):


View attachment 196323
Basically you make a thick frame with the stiles and top rail, and the other thinner rails/ledges are then morticed into the stiles. The tongue and groove boards then get nailed/screwed to the ledges. If you make this, you could try making proper mortice and tenons for the top rail, and do the rest with two dominoes per ledge. Even if it takes a while to make the mortice and tenons by hand, you only need to make two.

As for the bracing:
Avoid the top of the brace touching the stile, as it might force it out of the rail. Better to just have it touch the rail. Also, the book recommends having the braces in a line from the bottom to the top like this:
View attachment 196324

Thanks for this reply it’s really useful and I can really visualise what you mean. I’ll take a look at the link you sent when I get a moment. I’ve already got a book on door making but it’s more about ideas of how they look visually rather than details on how they are made correctly.

 

[Wilson joinery]

For a utilitarian garage door I would look at how @AJBaker has described for a start, keep it simple, and have full length planking on the front, with a side/stile and top/rail frame, the mid and bottom rails are set behind the cladding planks, using barefaced tenons into the the stiles with your current design water will wick up the end grain and soon lead to rotting out.

As @johnnyb said If need be use the domino to cut mortices, but you'll still have to find a way of making the tenons, back to old school ways maybe..

With regards the planks, on ones I've made in the past, I used a half lap type joint on the boards, rather than a t & g, and fixed them from inside with SS screws, set in grooves in the rails and a strip planted in to cover them.

Happy to draw it up if you need to know more.

The other point to note is your stock size of your frame @ 50mm, best check your supplier for their stock sizes as you may find the next size up will be 65mm, that's a lot of waste.

Thanks for this reply too. As AJBaker suggested do you think proper through tenons on the top rail and then Dominos on the mid and lower rails might work?

I can’t quite visualise what you mean about the grooves in the rails so if you had a chance to do a quick sketch that would be so helpful thank you.

For the fixing of the boards from the inside did you do this just through the braces or the rails too?

Many thanks
Pete

 

[Wilson joinery]

That is a big door, think I'd be looking at using some larger section timber.

Hi Doug

What size timber would you suggest for the frame? I recently made a ledged and braced door for an old air aid shelter and I’d used 4x2 C24 timber but admittedly that was a lot smaller and a lot lighter!

Cheers
Pete

 

[Wilson joinery]

Let us know how your getting on!
Probably take me 3 or 4 days if i had to make the t and g(its best as you dont have slivers ie cut boards) but takes much longer.

Hi johnny

I haven’t started yet as still picking a few of your knowledgeable peoples brains first but I’ll make sure I send updates once underway.

Cheers
Pete