Looking for an elegant joint solution

[ade99]

If I gave anything so much thought I'd struggle to make anything! That little top won't move much. If I'd made that shoe rack I'd just screw the top down and pellet it. Or better screw it from underneath. Stuff that small and delicate hasn't really got any doff to break or crack anything. Ps put another stretcher at the top and screw through that. Or buttons into the missing top stretcher. If I made it I'd extend the legs at the top(to stop the mortices splitting) and take the corners out of the top.Float the top with little spacers. And screw through the top rails.just oversize the hole half a mm.

Ps the whole assembly is not unlike clothes drying racks I make(and sell)
Mortice and tenons whilst neat and strong on small frames are really tedious to get really perfect even with machines. Hence my desire to make everything identical as little variations can really slow things down and scupper accuracy.

I would also consider how thin the legs are OK for single blind mortices but to thin for intersecting corner mortices. So basically stagger the mortices or beef up the leg.

Hi Johnny,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Lol, it does take me while to make things but it's a hobby (and I like the challenge). I want to further my skills and want to make fine furniture eventually so tackling these challenges is something I want to try out (and learn from mistakes/experience etc). I'm treating it more like an exercise rather than a job.
As far as mortise and tenons being tedious and the struggle of accuracy: For this reason, I've just made an adjustable morticing jig (for use with a router) and already have a tenoning jig (to use on my table saw)... plus I have milled up lots of spare material, initially to have the best choice for my chosen work pieces but also to have spare material with the same dimensions to use for test pieces and dialling it all in before I start working with my chosen work pieces.
And staggering mortices is planned for... the legs/stiles & stretchers are all 22mm x 42mm. I did mitre the ends of the tenons, in the past, on a previous small side/end table but shouldn't to do that, I don't think... will look at that further! Thanks.

 

[ade99]

For me the legs are to skinny in comparison to the rails, also with a shoe rack the shelves are often angled downwards at the front. To get ideas take a look at furniture in secondhand places to see how it is assembled, often good simple ideas that you can take forward to your own projects.

Interesting thought. I can see why you say that too. I do tend to agree as well. On this occasion though, I only have that one size of dimensioned material. It was all bought cheap as a job lot of rough sawn off-cuts (which I then milled down to arrive at the 22mm x 42mm). My thought was that it could be good for something frame-like as a next project!
As far as angling the shelves, I think that would play havoc with my current design (although not an idea I'm averse to). Perhaps if I had solid sides then angling would be an option but I'm pretty happy with the design, as it stands at this stage. My query is really just how I might elegantly join the top of the legs/stiles to a slab top shelf.

 

[johnnyb]

I love making those type of things using mitred corner posts. So the corners end up like L shaped with a single blind mortice in each half.

 

[johnnyb]

That really lends itself to fast and accurate making as the eight leg parts will basically be identical and much stronger. Joining those mitres well then becomes the technical tricky bit. I've used that method on panelled blanket chests.

 

[johnnyb]

Ps I'm not trying to lead you from your ideas just suggesting how they may be conventionalised resulting in that joint being made redundant with four woodscrews and a drill larger than the screws shank.

 

[ade99]

I love making those type of things using mitred corner posts. So the corners end up like L shaped with a single blind mortice in each half.

That really lends itself to fast and accurate making as the eight leg parts will basically be identical and much stronger. Joining those mitres well then becomes the technical tricky bit. I've used that method on panelled blanket chests.

Ps I'm not trying to lead you from your ideas just suggesting how they may be conventionalised resulting in that joint being made redundant with four woodscrews and a drill larger than the screws shank.

* Me too... I really enjoyed making those.

*I'm now thinking I may make the tenons longer on the long stretchers; as through tenons (something I haven't done before) and then wedge them with a darkener accent wood. (I have a spiral upcut bit for the mortising too so blow out on the back side will be mitigated - I'll use a backing board too).
I do intend to glue it all up in stages as well - the glue up is a bit daunting to be honest.

*And absolutely no problem... I didn't take it that way at all (I was just stating where I'm at in my journey).
I'm grateful for all of the feedback. I'm basically a student of YouTube and found this forum whilst searching for answers and just trying to further my knowledge

 

[HOJ]

Normally the methods of joinery will have been worked out before machining timber to size, for instance setting of the tenon sizes, based on the rule of thirds, and what chisel sizes you have relative to that dimension for morticing, the reliance on using routers and jigs may well restrict your choices.

For example this is a exploded detail drawing for a small cupboard, on my to do list:



All the joinery detailing has been worked in, and my cutting list made relative to the dimensions I need for making the joints, rather than the other way round.

And as to how to fix the top, as @johnnyb said, Id make the 2 end frames with another stretcher at the top and either just screw up though a couple of elongated holes, and/or pop a locating dowel in the top of each leg, into a slightly larger hole in the top.

 

[Jacob]

Hi and thanks.
As you say...
"I would be a bit wary of just using tenons in this instance"... that was my worry too!
"then the legs will have to bend at the top to cope with any movement" - that was my fear and hence the rabbit hole!
"a split will open up in the end grain sides of the mortices" - again, another similar thought I feared!
_

I did have another play in Fusion and came up with something I think I'm going to try (unless you all have better reasons for me not to)...
NB:
1. Front dovetails would be glued in place (to keep the front of the unit's overhang constant). The rear dovetails, which are set 5mm further back would be left loose (maybe even waxed as well).
2. The rear sockets are 5mm longer to allow for movement (~5mm from the earlier "shrinkulator" calcs)
3. It's a bit hard to see in the model but the rear section of each housing has straight mortices and the forward sections are dovetail sockets.
4. There's a minimum 3mm contact region all the way around the outside of the housing (underside of the top shelf) to meet the shoulder of the stiles/legs...but making that any larger and my fear is that the thinnest part of the dovetail becomes too thin/weak.

You really want to make it difficult!
Those little DT tails would snap off if there was any movement in the top and how would you get them into the top in the first place.
I think you need to look at some joinery rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. All "elegant joint solutions" to all problems have already been established and developed over thousands of years.
You are only making some ordinary looking shelves with a heavy board on top, not exactly a radical innovation!
Or is it a side table with shelves under? Maybe that's the problem, which is it?

 

[Jacob]

...... I want to further my skills .....

Design skills are key. That's where you start, after starting to learn how things are made, then on to the drawing board. Literally in the case of woodwork as drawing-board and bench skills overlap.
CAD can lead you astray; it's easy to design all manner of things and then be stuck over how to actually make them.

 

[HOJ]

I'm basically a student of YouTube and found this forum whilst searching for answers

I would ditch the youtube school of mis direction, buy a good book on joinery principles, and learn the basics, maybe start with something like this:

 

[Jacob]

I would ditch the youtube school of mis direction, buy a good book on joinery principles, and learn the basics, maybe start with something like this:

View attachment 180792

That's the way to do it! Followed by Aunty Joyce:
Over-thinking is no substitute for sensible research!

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/...Z7tLgq74oNduqb4IX72Go_jid13oYLGkaAhL-EALw_wcB

 

[ade99]

You really want to make it difficult!
Those little DT tails would snap off if there was any movement in the top and how would you get them into the top in the first place.
I think you need to look at some joinery rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. All "elegant joint solutions" to all problems have already been established and developed over thousands of years.
You are only making some ordinary looking shelves with a heavy board on top, not exactly a radical innovation!
Or is it a side table with shelves under? Maybe that's the problem, which is it?

Design skills are key. That's where you start, after starting to learn how things are made, then on to the drawing board. Literally in the case of woodwork as drawing-board and bench skills overlap.
CAD can lead you astray; it's easy to design all manner of things and then be stuck over how to actually make them.

That's the way to do it! Followed by Aunty Joyce:
Over-thinking is no substitute for sensible research!

View attachment 180796
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/...Z7tLgq74oNduqb4IX72Go_jid13oYLGkaAhL-EALw_wcB

Firstly, great book recommendation. Thanks for that.
Unfortunately, I felt the tone of your comments quite discouraging though.

In “Aunty Joyce’s” book he does illustrate a “slot-screwed joint” on page 177, top right (see attached). This is the type of concept I was thinking of. He obviously illustrates it more clearly than I did and describes it with the use of a screw rather than a dovetail. Perhaps I’ll try that. Good recomendation.

As far as you suggesting I’m “trying to reinvent the wheel” and saying “You are only making some ordinary looking shelves with a heavy board on top, not exactly a radical innovation! Or is it a side table with shelves under? Maybe that's the problem, which is it?’
- pretty negative! I’m obviously not trying to reinvent the wheel, I’d already stated I just wanted to make a shoe rack and that in expanding my knowledge, I was looking for invisible joint methods and suggestions of.

And as far as your comments on CAD, I have to disagree with you on those. One of my earlier projects didn’t look as balanced from the end as it did from the side. So, I try to model things first now so that I can view them from all angles and then I can also print out templates if required. I do find using it helpful. It seems HOJ agrees with the idea too…

Normally the methods of joinery will have been worked out before machining timber to size, for instance setting of the tenon sizes, based on the rule of thirds, and what chisel sizes you have relative to that dimension for morticing, the reliance on using routers and jigs may well restrict your choices.

For example this is a exploded detail drawing for a small cupboard, on my to do list:

View attachment 180770

All the joinery detailing has been worked in, and my cutting list made relative to the dimensions I need for making the joints, rather than the other way round.

And as to how to fix the top, as @johnnyb said, Id make the 2 end frames with another stretcher at the top and either just screw up though a couple of elongated holes, and/or pop a locating dowel in the top of each leg, into a slightly larger hole in the top.

View attachment 180771

Nice bit of cad work.

FYI though: My mortises will be cut with an 8mm router bit into pieces coming out at 22.2-22.4mm (measured more accurately with callipers)… so within 1mm for the rule of thirds.

It’s the wood I have so rather than waste it, I’ve decided to use it on this project that will be useful for us and will definitely get used. To be honest, I had actually designed the unit before milling but designed it parametrically… so just adjusted the dimensions to exact figures once I’d milled up the oak lengths and measured them.

I think I’m still going to go ahead with my idea but can always fall back on your later suggestion of following jonnyb’s method of having extra side stretchers at the tops of the ends.

I would ditch the youtube school of mis direction, buy a good book on joinery principles, and learn the basics, maybe start with something like this:

View attachment 180792

Another good book suggestion. Thank you. I found it available in an online library (as I did Jacob’s book suggestion too): If anyone else is interested, they’re in the “Internet Archive” at …
https://archive.org/

I have to disagree with your YouTube comment though. I’ve found YouTube really inspiring. My industry (live events) was decimated by COVID and further challenged by Brexit so I found watching videos during the COVID years helped me build on my passion for woodworking. Some of the guys I like are New Yorkshire Workshop, also referenced in other threads on this forum, along with Peter Sefton of Woodworkers Workshop, who also posts here regularly and then there are great woodworkers like Paul Sellers and older videos of Jim Kingshott (I’ve just recently found). And obviously younger guys like Ollie Bradshaw of Bradshaw Joinery who’s doing some great work. And then many Americans as well (obviously); a couple I really like the work of are Tom McLaughlin at Epic Woodworking and Mike Farrington too. I find them all really encouraging… and they’ve definitely inspired me!

 

[johnnyb]

Please don't be discouraged by anything we suggest. People bring there own prejudices to these posts. I personally love books and hate youtube simply because everyone's a personality but the information presented is equally valid but often in short form. 1275gt linked me to old Jim kingshott videos on YouTube and I really enjoyed these because of his personality. But he was topping of a long career in making by passing on his hard won knowledge. Many seem to pass on five minutes noodling in the workshop as hard won knowledge. Being a youtuber is an end in itself where being zany or literally anything to get hits is a means to acheive more clicks. But with makers literally disappearing left right and centre(either through death or bankruptcy) maybe all we are left with is this. One amazing thing about youtube is its totally open and your not relying on winning an apprenticeship competing with thousands.

 

[Jacob]

.....

.… and they’ve definitely inspired me!

Edison is supposed to have said “Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration,”
It's much more efficient to learn how things are done rather than having to work them out via first principles and trial and error.
Re. slotted screw joint; have a go by all means but it's not as easy as it looks. Modern screws don't have the hefty shank of the old sort and are likely to bend or snap. Also you'd need to sharpen the edge of the head as the method involves having it cut into the sides of the slot. It was used in the old days but modern glues make it redundant.
The old books are very good - newer ones dubious and youtube 90% rubbish.
My favourite is "Joinery and Carpentry" Greenhalgh ed. Pub. New Era. Can usually find them cheaper than this; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134520195107
Other old books are excellent too, dated similarly from "the age of wood" i.e. when it was a massive industry involving much hand work, pre WW2.

 

[johnnyb]

In the eighties and nineties there was a bit of a boom in wood books many very project led. The guild of master craftsmen were ahead of the game in helping craftsmen get published. Unfortuneatly many were rather pulpy. And trying to transfer your design into an understandable format for the reader to reproduce resulted in confusion and dodgy designing. There are way to many ways to skin that cat.

 

[ade99]

Please don't be discouraged by anything we suggest. People bring there own prejudices to these posts. I personally love books and hate youtube simply because everyone's a personality but the information presented is equally valid but often in short form. 1275gt linked me to old Jim kingshott videos on YouTube and I really enjoyed these because of his personality. But he was topping of a long career in making by passing on his hard won knowledge. Many seem to pass on five minutes noodling in the workshop as hard won knowledge. Being a youtuber is an end in itself where being zany or literally anything to get hits is a means to acheive more clicks. But with makers literally disappearing left right and centre(either through death or bankruptcy) maybe all we are left with is this. One amazing thing about youtube is its totally open and your not relying on winning an apprenticeship competing with thousands.

Thanks Johnny, much appreciated.
I also love books and do have a few too. And I think you’re absolutely right about the “noodlers” on YouTube as well. I’ve watched a few but just don’t return to those. I’m inspired by those that clearly have the knowledge and a wealth of experience… and who are able & willing to pass that knowledge on.
I thought Jim’s videos were brilliant and his delivery style was just lovely. I’d highly recommend them to anyone who’s interested.
And I also think you’re absolutely right when you say “One amazing thing about youtube is it’s totally open and you’re not relying on winning an apprenticeship competing with thousands.”… you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I’m in my fifties and a professional in another industry. There’s no way I could pick up that kind of knowledge in such a short space of time without the kind of access that YouTube affords.

In the eighties and nineties there was a bit of a boom in wood books many very project led. The guild of master craftsmen were ahead of the game in helping craftsmen get published. Unfortuneatly many were rather pulpy. And trying to transfer your design into an understandable format for the reader to reproduce resulted in confusion and dodgy designing. There are way to many ways to skin that cat.

And again, “There are way too many ways to skin that cat.”… Absolutely! Different approaches are right for different people!

-
I’m about to go away for a few weeks (for work) now so will have to pick this up again on my return. Unfortunately, I now have to travel today due to the rail strikes which is a bit of a shame. I had hoped to take my project forward and get the frame made but there’s just not enough time now. I didn’t want to start it and have to leave it half done.
I still want to pursue the slotted dovetail idea (à la the “slotted screw joint”). If it doesn’t work then I’ll just cut the dovetails off and use a stretcher, dropped into an open mortise at the top of the legs. It’s all learning and if it fails then I’ve learned that through experience too.

 

[johnnyb]

Great stuff. You only need one side to allow movement technically thus halving the work! Let us know how you went on when you manage!

 

[ade99]

Great stuff. You only need one side to allow movement technically thus halving the work! Let us know how you went on when you manage!

Will do!

 

[Sam Kilby]

A bit complicated! You should have a look at some actual tables. Breadboard ends aren't that necessary - it's a bit specialised. Table tops generally are fixed with "buttons" and similar devices to allow movement.
No need to reinvent the wheel - keep looking at actual furniture as primary source of practical design details, you don't have to work them up from first principles!

There are literally thousands upon thousands of examples of old breadboard end tables.
I’m just responding to the original question which even references sliding dovetails, so the obvious answer for an elegant joinery solution would be breadboards.
I also said it’s a lot of extra work and might be unnecessary !

 

[Sam Kilby]

I would also consider how thin the legs are OK for single blind mortices but to thin for intersecting corner mortices. So basically stagger the mortices or beef up the leg.

Yes bare faced, wedged through tenons on the inside of the legs, into a breadboard.. would also be suitable grain direction then to not split the breadboard..
again I’m not saying I would bother with it, but I would argue it’s the optimum way to do it and would be a fun challenge if you haven’t done it before/aren’t trying to sell it