LN No9 Mitre Plane

[custard]

You mentioned that you have a preference for 'innovators' rather than 'copyists' ("I'm not an LN fan - I prefer innovators to copyists - but I do have a No9 and am very fond of it.") so by this and your other posts on Holtey I assume this means you own Holtey planes and I'd love to hear more about this when you have the time.

I'd also like to hear yetloH's experiences.

I own a Holtey infill smoother, the Veritas/Holtey purfling cutter (with a variety of special thickness cutters that Karl made up for me), a Norris Panel Plane that Karl helped me with and that has three Holtey irons as well as as the original Norris iron, and an 06 Stanley Bedrock that's had quite a bit of work and is set up for use with a few different Holtey irons including his S53 powdered steel as well as his more usual A2.

The care and attention to detail that goes into everything carrying the Holtey name takes my breath away. They are inspirational tools that are an absolute delight to use. But do they produce results that are unobtainable with more modest tools? No they don't. The wood isn't quite as impressed as I am! I've thought about commissioning a 984, but I bought the Holtey smoother in a previous and rather more affluent life; as a full time furniture maker I'd have to think long and hard about an investment like that and I'm probably going to say no. I use a Veritas bevel up jack with a wide range of PM-V2 irons, and even though the 984 will undoubtedly be a joy in the hand, realistically I doubt it will deliver noticeably better results than the Veritas.

The Holtey S53 steel is remarkable, it holds an edge substantially longer than any other plane iron I own, but it's a nightmare to sharpen. Water stones won't touch it, it has to be diamond plates followed by diamond paste. In reality the trade-off between edge retention and ease of sharpening isn't viable, so I use a Ray Iles D2 steel iron in an old Record 05 for dealing with the edges of plywood or cleaning up laminations bonded with Bordens UF adhesive, and PM-V2 and A2 for almost everything else.

Another interesting point is that apparently I'm one of a vanishingly small group of customers who have ever requested spare irons, suggesting the great majority of Karl's output sits in glass cases around the world. That's a bit of a shame, I use the Holtey smoother regularly and it's one of the special treats of my woodworking day.

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your balanced, realistic assessment which is especially valuable given your professional training and experience.

After all is said and done, a clean pass with a plane is a clean pass.

 

[G S Haydon]

Just to make this thread meander back to LN. I actually think the temp tats and posters are a neat idea. A good way of marking a good day out for a youngster after a tour. If things are fun Kids are much more likely to be involved.

I also think it's a mark of their success that people speculate to some cheeky reason for changing the line up. They are very much the good guys though so no need to worry about that.

The only very small amount of feedback would be about a recent video they did. As a rule their videos are very well presented, even if someone does not agree with the message they are very well put over and explained (much better than my dros). However https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te3VuCoTLvE had my toes curling just a touch. I'm not sure how the different iron used in the body of a shoulder plane will outperforms the Record? I know the LN is a superb bit of kit but it seemed a leap to far. I also had a little chuckle about about the saw being better by a million to one . Again, doubtless it's terrific but again too much for me.

Sorry, there is more. The demo of the normal saw and cutting past the line was getting a touch silly but the biggest point was https://youtu.be/Te3VuCoTLvE?t=5m57s . I'm not sure I'd do that with my hardpoint saws .

I think on balance I'd like to see a more accomplished woodworker demonstrate the process. I hope they can return to the excellent standard of video soon.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Sorry, there is more. The demo of the normal saw and cutting past the line was getting a touch silly but the biggest point was https://youtu.be/Te3VuCoTLvE?t=5m57s . I'm not sure I'd do that with my hardpoint saws .

I was amazed when I saw him do that :shock: He then went on to stress that it was a thin-plate saw and should be treated accordingly. Perhaps they need to re-make that video :-k :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[G S Haydon]

:lol: It made me chuckle and toes curl at the same time, bit like a Ricky Gervais comedy. All joking aside with a reputation hard won it'd be a shame to see it eroded with well meant but ultimately poor video. Why no do another take?

 

[Trafalgar]

Horrible video. I guess this guy is supposed to be the bumbling 'everyman' who can do nothing right except write a check.

 

[G S Haydon]

I think it could be staff, they did a nice one on tool care that was well presented and I think that was a staff member. I think the guy did his best, it's not the most easy thing in the world to do an infomercial like that, just would of been nicer with a Klausz or similar.

 

[Trafalgar]

They can certainly do better, and should.

 

[mouppe]

It's indeed a bit of a weak video. I even left a comment when it was first issued and it was never responded to. I asked why a tapered saw could not be progressively pitched just like any other saw.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Although not ideal in many respects, I understand why the video is as it is. For a well known celebrity woodworker to do the vid, there would have to be endorsement involved, which would preclude many who are affiliated with other manufacturers and magazine contributions. With fees, royalties and whatever other cost involved, inevitably lawyers and goodness knows what else, it just would not be worth the bother for a relatively marginal business. After all, the vid just shows a saw making some cuts. The inclusivity of LN staff is nice to see, and probably a better advertising 'gimmick' than a famous face anyway. In fact all the other marketing paraphernalia such as temporary tats and posters are completely understandable, too. It does not and could never detract from the quality of their tools, but promoting sales for a business is difficult. Any thing that raises awareness is important, especially to those who are not into woodwork yet!

To answer moupee's post, if you watch the video, the presenter explains why LN moved away from progressive pitch. A thin plate with regular tooth spacing gives the speedy cut of PP saws, but with better cut quality.

Mike.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Maybe I'm just in grumpy old grouch mode, but I can't say I'm all that impressed with thin-plate saws, taper blades, progressive pitch (on backsaws, anyway - there might be an argument for it on coarse rip saws).

The one thing that makes the most difference to saw performance is whether or not it's sharp. Everything else is just a bit of a gimmick. If you're sawing past your baselines, take a careful look at your technique - keep the saw level, and you won't overcut.

 

[Trafalgar]

Bunch o' gimmicks.

So much of this stuff, so very much of it, looked (and looks) better on paper and in conversation than any difference it makes in real use. It gets put into production as much for the marketing aspect as anything else. You could blindfold a thousand woodworkers and one might know he (she) was sawing with a taper-ground saw, much less any of this other bullsheet. And even the one woodworker is doubtful. The vast majority of people can't consistently saw dead square to the face so none of these other 'enhancements' could really even work until that happens. I mean dead square. The only thing that gets dirty are the teeth.

Somebody standing over a rip cut contemplating how much easier it might be with a thin-kerf saw, progressive pitch saw, etc. etc. simply needs to buy a tablesaw. End of story. Sawing lumber by hand, particularly ripping, is hard work. All tools have their own 'feels' and once the new has worn off you'll sweat just as much using the new one as you did the old one. Keep it sharp, make sure the blade is straight. Learning to saw dead square to the face will relieve some of the effort -- nothing but the toothline in the cut. If the sides of the saw are bouncing around in the walls of the kerf it's like a bobsled banging the walls going down the course -- slows down the action.

After this, not much else helps. Learn not to press the saw. It's going to cut as fast as it's going to cut. Cut square and cut with a sharp straight saw is about all you can do.

People who think that a new saw, with all this garbage and price-tag that comes with, is an epiphany is probably sawing with a sharp saw for the first time in their life, full stop. Once they're used to sharp all the rest of it is just ad copy.

 

[woodbrains]

Bunch o' gimmicks.

So much of this stuff, so very much of it, looked (and looks) better on paper and in conversation than any difference it makes in real use. It gets put into production as much for the marketing aspect as anything else. You could blindfold a thousand woodworkers and one might know he (she) was sawing with a taper-ground saw, much less any of this other bullsheet. And even the one woodworker is doubtful. The vast majority of people can't consistently saw dead square to the face so none of these other 'enhancements' could really even work until that happens. I mean dead square. The only thing that gets dirty are the teeth.

Somebody standing over a rip cut contemplating how much easier it might be with a thin-kerf saw, progressive pitch saw, etc. etc. simply needs to buy a tablesaw. End of story. Sawing lumber by hand, particularly ripping, is hard work. All tools have their own 'feels' and once the new has worn off you'll sweat just as much using the new one as you did the old one. Keep it sharp, make sure the blade is straight. Learning to saw dead square to the face will relieve some of the effort -- nothing but the toothline in the cut. If the sides of the saw are bouncing around in the walls of the kerf it's like a bobsled banging the walls going down the course -- slows down the action.

After this, not much else helps. Learn not to press the saw. It's going to cut as fast as it's going to cut. Cut square and cut with a sharp straight saw is about all you can do.

People who think that a new saw, with all this garbage and price-tag that comes with, is an epiphany is probably sawing with a sharp saw for the first time in their life, full stop. Once they're used to sharp all the rest of it is just ad copy.

Hello,

Whilst I agree with much of this in terms of seasoned woodworkers, beginners have to start with good tools, if they are not going to have some tuition in how to get them good in the first place. I don't think a saw, plane or whatever, made to a fine standard, by a Western manufacturer can ever be cheaper than LN make them, so arguing cost is moot. The fine antique tools that can be fettled by those in the know, to perform well, were essentially high end tools of their day, costing in real terms the same order as the LN, LA Clifton et al cost nowadays. These tools are not Holtey or the likes, they are work a day tools and ar expected to be.

Incidentally, the saws in question are not taper ground, but tapered plates from heel to toe. This is something that saws of yesteryear also exhibited, so not a gimmick even if not essential.LN copy old Sheffield saw makers and Disston models, which were good examples of their type.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

The price of entry with respect to a decent saw is certainly well below Lie-Nielsen prices.

Competition 'in the day' had to have been cutthroat. If somebody could shave a little metal off here or there and proclaim some sort of magic then that's just what they did. Again, a lot of this stuff sounds like a great idea but in practice makes little if any difference. Tapers, breasting, it was all just an attempt at a marketing advantage. If I put a blindfold on you no way you could tell me if the plate was breasted, tapered, pitched differently from toe to heel, etc. etc. About the only you would be able to tell is a dull saw from a sharp one and whether or not you found the handle to be comfortable. A whole lot of people probably wouldn't even be able to tell if they were sawing with a crosscut saw or a rip saw if not allowed to touch the teeth. Further, I bet a lot of people in fact I feel sure that many would pick as their favourite (love the "u") one of the relatively cheap saws with Japanese style teeth that are arranged to cut on the push stroke, or actually cut both ways on the inbound and outbound stroke.

Poor, poor beginners they fall for all this marketing fluff and end up having to buy cheap softwoods to work because the money is all gone. That or they have more money than sense and get ****** around by the nose by this marketing piece and that marketing piece and end up with a woodworking store all their own.

I'd be willing to bet money that a Stanley Jet Cut (or the Spear and Jackson equivalent) could crosscut a board in fewer strokes and leave cleaner margins than the best big crosscut saw Lie-Nielsen sells. If there was a difference it would be negligible.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

The price of entry with respect to a decent saw is certainly well below Lie-Nielsen prices.

Competition 'in the day' had to have been cutthroat. If somebody could shave a little metal off here or there and proclaim some sort of magic then that's just what they did. Again, a lot of this stuff sounds like a great idea but in practice makes little if any difference. Tapers, breasting, it was all just an attempt at a marketing advantage. If I put a blindfold on you no way you could tell me if the plate was breasted, tapered, pitched differently from toe to heel, etc. etc. About the only you would be able to tell is a dull saw from a sharp one and whether or not you found the handle to be comfortable. A whole lot of people probably wouldn't even be able to tell if they were sawing with a crosscut saw or a rip saw if not allowed to touch the teeth. Further, I bet a lot of people in fact I feel sure that many would pick as their favourite (love the "u") one of the relatively cheap saws with Japanese style teeth that are arranged to cut on the push stroke, or actually cut both ways on the inbound and outbound stroke.

Poor, poor beginners they fall for all this marketing fluff and end up having to buy cheap softwoods to work because the money is all gone. That or they have more money than sense and get ****** around by the nose by this marketing piece and that marketing piece and end up with a woodworking store all their own.

I'd be willing to bet money that a Stanley Jet Cut (or the Spear and Jackson equivalent) could crosscut a board in fewer strokes and leave cleaner margins than the best big crosscut saw Lie-Nielsen sells. If there was a difference it would be negligible.

Although a relative handtool beginner I have learned enough so far as to agree with the above post. I have a LN 16ppi dovetail saw and a LV saw of similar tooth configuration. Yes they are nice and they cut well, however I wondered how well they would fair over time and with the realisation they would need to be sharpened one day I put them to one side fearful of wearing them out and only brought them out on high days and Saturdays. This of course is ridiciulous so I started to use them again. I was however keen to learn how to sharpen a hand saw, so with the help of YouTube and a couple of cheap ebay saw purchases I set out to learn to sharpen a saw. I must say it was surprisingly straight forward and simple. Even the first sharpening on a £5 vintage saw returned fantastic results and so I was hooked. After a few more experiments with filing, sharpening and setting of teeth ( haven't tried X cut sharpening as yet) I have several old saws able to cut every bit as good as the LN with equally thin kerfs.

Rather than buy a LN saw first off, I would recommend the beginner buy a couple of old saws, suitable files , a tin of brasso and paste wax and set about learning to sharpen them. If you get it wrong first off, no big deal, even really bad mistakes or missing or broken teeth can be rectified with a little practice and patience. Not only will you quickly learn how to sharpen and set up a saw you will learn so much about the saw itself, its required maintenance and capabilities. An older saw may take a little longer to sharpen and set when first acquired, although subsequent ( and not all that often sharpenings) take around 5 minutes, so can be done on the job and no need to send off to a saw doctor, if you can fnd one that is. Besides, craftsmen and artisans of old would have been expected to maintain their tools are part of their craft, a skill or belief we are sadly losing.

David

 

[woodbrains]

I'd be willing to bet money that a Stanley Jet Cut (or the Spear and Jackson equivalent) could crosscut a board in fewer strokes and leave cleaner margins than the best big crosscut saw Lie-Nielsen sells. If there was a difference it would be negligible.

Hello,

This is true, I'm sure a Stanley jet cut would do as good a job. But they are made in the Far East or Mexico or somewhere the labour force are slaves. And this is the only example you can think of, isn't it. Find a dovetail saw or try plane or whatever, made by fairly paid Western producers that is significantly cheaper than LN, Veritas, LV et al. These tools are fairly priced and do what they should without flaw. Nice antique examples were priced similarly to the craftsmen of the day, make no bones about it. A Stanley smoother, around the time of its introduction cost a craftsman about a weeks wages, compared with a Norris which cost about a months, essentially causing the demise of that type of plane. A LN smoother, about a weeks wages and superior to the Stanley. If you can find old examples of tools, make them work because you have the knowledge, great. But some people do not and should not be hamstrung from the start with lousy tools. Others just want to work wood with good tools and don't much care for the (often hours) of refurbishment they require.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think of all the hobbies and professions out there, woodworking surely must have the highest number of amateur economists, international diplomats, and human rights activists.

If L-N is the cost of entry, before one buys a single stick of decent material - the most inherently and unavoidably expensive aspect of the whole affair, then the hobby is becoming too gentrified. This is a real shame in my opinion.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

I'd be willing to bet money that a Stanley Jet Cut (or the Spear and Jackson equivalent) could crosscut a board in fewer strokes and leave cleaner margins than the best big crosscut saw Lie-Nielsen sells. If there was a difference it would be negligible.

Hello,

This is true, I'm sure a Stanley jet cut would do as good a job. But they are made in the Far East or Mexico or somewhere the labour force are slaves. And this is the only example you can think of, isn't it. Find a dovetail saw or try plane or whatever, made by fairly paid Western producers that is significantly cheaper than LN, Veritas, LV et al. These tools are fairly priced and do what they should without flaw. Nice antique examples were priced similarly to the craftsmen of the day, make no bones about it. A Stanley smoother, around the time of its introduction cost a craftsman about a weeks wages, compared with a Norris which cost about a months, essentially causing the demise of that type of plane. A LN smoother, about a weeks wages and superior to the Stanley. If you can find old examples of tools, make them work because you have the knowledge, great. But some people do not and should not be hamstrung from the start with lousy tools. Others just want to work wood with good tools and don't much care for the (often hours) of refurbishment they require.

Mike.

I would agree with you Mike, no one wants lousy tools and if they can be purchased at a fair price ready to go then that is undoubtedly beneficial. However, most hand tools require some sort of fettling or tuning prior to use, even set accordingly for the individual users requirements.

The Stanleys when introduced would have been a revolation for woodworkers of the day I am sure, although they were no where near ready for use when bought new, certainly from the vintage ones I have acquired over the years. I also accept that some do not wish to spend time fettling planes and would rather be working wood. I would however consider tuning them is a neccesary evil prior to ensuring the time spent working wood becomes both efficient and enjoyable. Perhaps too, the expectation of todays woodworkers is somewhart different to craftsmen of the past? Certainly, some expect gossimer thin shavings from a plane for example, probably because someone on an internet video has led us to believe that is what is required as a minimum standard.

I have no formal woodwork training, although having spoken to older woodworkers over the years on this subject it was apparent a fair part of their training was directed and dedicated to tool maintenance/repair and care. Maybe we have become too reliant on others or accepting of todays disposable society.

David

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I think of all the hobbies and professions out there, woodworking surely must have the highest number of amateur economists, international diplomats, and human rights activists.

This sort of snide dig is unbecoming of any hobby or profession.

 

[Trafalgar]

What's particularly interesting are the statements like "a Stanley cost X days wages" "and an XYZ plane cost this many days' wages." Where are these calculations coming from and can we see them? Whose price deflators are being used? Wages in what country? For what time period? From what statistical source(s)? Wages for whom, experienced or entry-level cabinetmakers? How do these wages compare to wages in other industries for the same time period? In what size firm were these individuals employed? Why would a nonprofessional woodworker even attempt this calculation? What question are they trying to answer or position are they trying to support? And the list of questions could go on and on.