Lie-Nielsen Straight Handled Saw

[Chris Knight]

Jeremy,

Yes, I have reservations about a rip profile for dovetailing. In dovetailing, the saw is held pretty well at right angles to the face of the timber, whereas in a ripping operation (on sawhorses with one knee on the board) the saw is at a significant angle to the face of the wood.

You only have to tilt the saw whilst cutting to know that there is a sort of "sweet spot" - an angle at which the saw cuts most happily and this is not 90 degrees in my experience.

I have a LN dovetail saw and use it but if I were honest I guess I would say I am actually more accurate with a cheap Japanese back saw (crosscut). At 90 degrees the Japanese saw just cuts with less vibration and seems much happier. Both track straight and I can saw to a marked line with either but if there were dovetail cutting competitions, I'd enter with the Japanese saw.

 

[Alf]

Whilst, of course, dovetailing is logically a ripping operation, generations of craftsman have used cross-cut saws to make the joint. That, surely, can't be an accident.

Ah... Lots and lots of theories can be rolled out on this one. From "if you go far enough back all saws were filed rip actually" (see Adam Cherubini's argument at the bottom of this page f'rinstance. Unfortunately "The Tool Chest of Benjamin Seaton" doesn't mention if his saws were filed rip or X-cut but just as a fyi, as I have the book out, his DT saw was 19ppi which is pretty damn fine - wouldn't like to have to have filed that... :shock through to "X-cut is more flexible so later craftsman, who maybe had only one back saw, would opt for that configuration". Personally I would be willing to bet a large percentage of users probably didn't even know there was a difference between rip and X-cut. It just got filed like it always had; maybe a hybrid X-cut/rip to take Adam's theorising a little further? I really don't know, but personally if I'm going to be sharpening 15ppi I'd sooner it was rip; X-cut is much tougher to do. :wink:

The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile.

Nothing to do with rip or X-cut and everything to do with set and blade thickness I believe. I have the most bootiful brass-backed Sorby (IIRC) which has an incredibly thin "plate" and it has a kerf to rival a Japanese saw. 15ppi rip. Unfortunately the very thinness has meant it's got a curve to it after the neglect of previous years, so it's limited to thinner stock.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Chris Knight]

Just to add to what I said above.

When you think about it, the saw tips in dovetailing are "planing end grain". In a true ripping operation, The saw is really "planing long grain". A huge difference in actual planing operations.

 

[J.A.S]

Alf,

you've clearly put me in my place :lol: !

However, my comment that,

The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile

was not meant to imply that I thought the x-cut was responsible for the kerf's fineness. Rather, my point was that such results can be achieved with a cross-cut configuration, despite the current view that only a rip profile will do. Thus, why bother with a rip-cut DT?

Does that make sense?

Jeremy

 

[Philly]

Just to add some thoughts...
When I first got the saw I had to REALLY check that it was the cross-cut and not the regular rip. There is minimal set and the teeth are VERY close in profile and angle to the rip dovetail saw.
The biggest difference to me was the ease of starting the cut-you have to learn the knack for starting the rip saw, whilst the cross-cut just goes from the off.
I wish I could get you lot round my workshop and give you a go-I'm very excited about this saw, and am sure that it will become a very popular saw in years to come. For the money (roughly £40) the saw is cheap-compare other "quality" saws at this price range and you'll see what I mean.
Looks like you'll have to wait until Tools 2005 otherwise
cheers
Philly

 

[Alf]

Alf, you've clearly put me in my place :lol: !

Sorry. Not the intention; just a brain (for want of a betterword) dump.

However, my comment that,

The fineness of the cuts in Philly's photo is enough for me to hold fire on having some old saws filed in a rip profile

was not meant to imply that I thought the x-cut was responsible for the kerf's fineness. Rather, my point was that such results can be achieved with a cross-cut configuration, despite the current view that only a rip profile will do. Thus, why bother with a rip-cut DT?

Does that make sense?

Yep, it does. It's simply back to the best tool for the job argument. It's a rip cut, so use a rip saw. Heck, you can cut DTs with a hacksaw if you want, but it's not the "optimised tool" for the job. Alas I can't find Pete Taran and Patrick Leach's original announcement of the IT saw on the Old Tools List which set the whole rip saw thing going, or indeed any explanation of why they went for a rip configuration. But I would bet it's the rip tooth for rip cut reason. And like I said, we may be looking at this all wrong anyway. Perhaps the question should be "why bother with a X-cut?".

Philly, the ease of starting the cut is all in the rake angle of the teeth, as I'm sure you're aware. X-cut always have a more friendly angle (about 15 degs) while rip can even be as low as 0 degs, which is very hard to start but very quick cutting. Don't know what angle LN use, but if it's very low that'd explain why there are so many reports of the rip ones being hard to start. So take a file to it... :wink: Although maybe you're going to sell it now? :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

It may be interest to read the very latest edition (Issue 46, March 2005) of the Australian Wood Review, a monthly woodworking magazine (pretty good one I might add). There is an article in which 10 dovetail saws are reviewed. These include the Lie Nielsen Independence, Adria, Pax 1776 and Pax D8 in one group, the LN Gents (15 tpi rip) and Pax 8" (20 tpi rip) in another group, and 4 japanese style saws in the last group (Ikeda, Bridge City, Gyokucho, and Veritas).

In group one, LN, Adria and Pax 1776 rated identically - all excellent to hold and use, but also all were equally difficult to start.

Of particular imprtance to our discussion were the comments about the two gent saws. Briefly, the Pax outpointed the LN, both on feel (the long, thin handle of the LN came in for criticism) and start (clearly this LN was no easier to start than the pistol grip version). I do suspect that the review was written before the new LN gent saw options became available. Note was made of the aggressive rake of the LN teeth (11 degrees) verses the greater number of teeth (20 tpi) and less aggressive rake (17.5 degrees) of the Pax. (I suspect that the Pax, here, and my own Crown are likely to be very similar saws).

In the final count, the most user friendly saws were the Ikeda and Bridge City (with warnings given about using them in softer woods only). With the pistol grips saws, preference was given to the Adria and the Pax over the LN since they were significantly cheaper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Chris Knight]

Apropos starting a cut with the LN and saws like it, I find quite the best way is NOT to start on the far side and draw the saw backwards but to be bold and make a decisive forward cut across the whole width of the workpiece. This way there are enough teeth in contact with the wood for a smooth motion, the blade doesn't bounce (off the cut line) and all proceeds in sweetness and light so to speak.

Just do this when you haven't had too much coffee!

 

[Frank D.]

I follow Tom Law's advice and start the cut at 60°, which is almost pointing to the ceiling when the board is upright. I also use my thumbnail as a stop. A rip saw is more difficult to start, and maybe takes more practice and warming up to control, but I like the way it just slices through tough woods like butter.
The advantage of a rip over a crosscut is that, while more difficult to start, the rip saw cuts faster and thus should track straighter because it can't wander as much. My Japanese crosscut saws have trouble ripping through hard woods and, while the kerf is thin, they wander quite a bit so the kerf ends up much wider than on crosscuts.
Frank

 

[Philly]

Starting the cut with the rip saw isn't too difficult-just a bit of a knack to get it right! I find that the saw rubs out the line before the cut is fully started sometimes-a bit annoying!
Cheers
Philly

 

[Alf]

Derek, thanks for the heads up on AWR - looks pretty good and I'm tempted to get an antipodean view of the woodworking world. (Works out about £23 for a year's sub, UK folks.)

Fwiw, half my saw starting troubles disappeared when I started taking virtually all the weight of the saw at the start of the cut. Like all things, it seems to be largely a matter of practice though. Wish I could just remember that before starting on a proper DT and warm up on a practice cut or two... :roll:

Cheers, Alf

Who really needs to acquire a nail or two for this sort of thing... :lol: