Lie-Nielsen Chisels-anyone else having problems?

[Alf]

Making things.

Steady, boy; them's fightin' words. :lol:

As far as the precision bevel angle stuff goes, I'm assuming in the absence of alternative input that all this precision to with a degree or two is entirely dependant on what the jig settings say? Crumbs, you must have considerably more faith in these things than I do, that's all I can say. :shock:

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

The fact is that I see many, many vintage chisels which are used up. I have a few.

One "interesting" thing that occurs with old chisels is that they weren't hard all the way back to the tang.

(parenthesis; IIRC Marples once had a slogan on their new (at the time) oven tempered chisels - "Good to the last inch")

When such a chisel wears, it gradually becomes softer at the cutting edge, and eventually (I suspect) stops getting used much.

Of course, it's easy to find such chisels at car boot sales, and then conclude that old chisels are soft. (I don't think MikeW is making this mistake, BTW)

BugBear

 

[dchenard]

Making things.

Steady, boy; them's fightin' words. :lol:

Were they? :-k

Naaa, Mike wouldn't do that... :lol:

DC

Looking for things to make :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

BugBear

Looks like this one's a runner :lol:

cheers
Grimsdale and the Bevelly Sisters

 

[Alf]

There are considerably more dead horses being beaten than runners in Netland, but I did my best. Somehow I don't anticipate us needing this one as often... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...

So in conclusion, the only determining factor of chisels is whether they crumble at an angle you determine, regardless of the construction or intended use of the chisel?

To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.

 

[David C]

To answer Alf's question, a good one, I squint against a scrap of wood with some lines drawn with a children's maths protractor, while holding the chisel against a flat surface. Lots of pressure above the bevel and slight rocking motion to establish where it is sitting.

This works for my grinding angle which is slightly hollow ground from the Tormek 10" wheel. Personally not too concerned with precise grinding angles.

For polishing angle, chisel held in favorite Eclipse type guide and squint again. Probably accurate to + or - a degree or two.

If I wished to be more precise, I would set in guide, then set small adjustable bevel and take this to the protractor.

best wishes,
David

 

[dchenard]

Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...

So in conclusion, the only determining factor of chisels is whether they crumble at an angle you determine, regardless of the construction or intended use of the chisel?

To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.

No ill intentions here... I'm just planning on bringing the LN to the same bevel angle I use on my other bevel-edge chisels, and we'll see... Cosman goes beyond what I'm planning to do, and is happy...

DC

 

[Bean]

Paul Kierstead wrote

To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.

Wrong if you read my original post. Chisels ground to recomended angle, used by hand not pounded, and they crumble.
I have some footprint chisels used on the same timbers, there edges dont crumble. So which one is worth the money?

LN at 35 GBP or Footprint at 7 GBP

 

[David C]

Rob Cosman is principally using the very low honing angle to remove small end grain cuts, between dovetails in pine poplar and aspen.

These are very soft woods.

If tried in Elm the results are all too predictable.

David Charlesworth

 

[David C]

I have been using these chisels since the first prototypes.

We work in hard to very hard timbers.

They are excellent and there is nothing to match them in current mainstream western manufacturing, that I know of.

L-N always replace faulty tools without question.

David Charlesworth

 

[Alf]

Chisels ground to recomended angle, used by hand not pounded, and they crumble.
I have some footprint chisels used on the same timbers, there edges dont crumble. So which one is worth the money?

LN at 35 GBP or Footprint at 7 GBP

Putting aside the possibility of a dodgy batch slipping through the net a mo', a couple of things before we roundly condemn LN chisels as over-priced tat. First up, have you tried increasing the bevel angle and seeing if that's an improvement? I don't recall the details off-hand, but I would imagine the recommended bevel angles has pretty average timber in mind. In the same way Mr Cosman can get away with a lower angle for paring softer-than-average woods, you may need a higher angle for the harder ones. How do they fair in more average timber? Secondly, the worth of something is a debatable one, but perhaps if you want a lower angle bevel for paring then it's not wholly unreasonable to say the A2 steel LNs aren't worth the money to you (and to me, as it happens - as parers that is). Thirdly, if a reasonable increase in bevel angle does achieve the goods, see how long you can go between sharpenings on the LNs compared with the Footprints - again, like me, that may not be a benefit you desire so much as a lower bevel angle, but it's something that does make them worth the money to some people.

No idea why I have this urge to rush to these chisels' defence, 'cos it's not like I'm a fan of the A2, but I suppose if the boot is going to be put in it'd be nice to have it put in in a balanced way. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

They are excellent and there is nothing to match them in current mainstream western manufacturing, that I know of.

Well I've never had a crumbly chisel from Marples, Stanley, Footprint etc etc :lol:
Actually I've got a crumbly Sorby gouge but it's ancient and rusty - bought from ebay so probably also been mistreated.

L-N always replace faulty tools without question.

So does Screwfix, B&Q, and virtually everybody.
But LN are supposed to be never faulty - that's why they cost so much, and they are supposed to be "useable out of the box"which I understood is (was) their strongest selling point.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Randy]

Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while.

Anyway, I recently purchased a LN bench and mortise chisel and had the same experience as Bean - needless to say how disappointed I was. However, I was encouraged by some of the posts here to give it another try before sending them back. So last night I went to the bench sharpened up the chisles and started chiseling away at red oak. Again, the edges crumbled but not as badly as the previous time I tried them. I went through this process a couple of more times and then success.

I proceeded to abuse these chisels chopping (pounding) red oak for around 30 minutes and they maintained their edge well. I was even able to par thin shavings from end grain pine after the pounding.

thanks all,

Randy

By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.

 

[CHJ]

Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while....snip..By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.

Welcome to the forum Randy, nothing like picking a an un-contentious subject for your first post, brave man

Interesting that successive sharpenings cleared the problem. Something to do with production grinding defects maybe :?:

 

[MikeW]

Hello all I am new here but I have been lurking for a great while....snip..By the way, the BE chisel was sharpened at roughly 30 deg and the mortise chisel roughly 35 deg.

Welcome to the forum Andy, nothing like picking a an un-contentious subject for your first post, brave man

Interesting that successive sharpenings cleared the problem. Something to do with production grinding defects maybe :?:

And a welcome form me, Randy!

Hi Chas,

The chisels of modern manufacture I have bought or had experience with nearly to the last one has had problems of what I would call premature edge failure until ground or sharpened back a bit.

Two exceptions. The AI chisels I have played with didn't exhibit this, nor did the single Blue Spruce chisel. All others either had edge breakage/chipping or the edge rolled easily. All got significantly better once past the first bit.

I suspect this is an issue of the hardening and or tempering process, the very edge always at risk of getting too soft during tempering, or remaining hard.

What are called High Carbon chisels have a propensity of getting soft while tempering and A2, with its very tricky hardening/tempering cycles of remaining brittle.

I have yet to meet a retailer or company who would not take their wares back if you give their tools a test, including using them a bit and in the case of chisels, a few use/sharpening cycles.

Take care, Mike

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Paul Kierstead wrote

To summarize: You bought it, you are going to grind it at less of an angle then the manufacturer recommended, you are going to pound on it, the edge will crumble, then you will report that L-N chisels crumble.

Wrong if you read my original post. Chisels ground to recomended angle, used by hand not pounded, and they crumble.

The comment was not directed at you, sorry for the confusion.

 

[David C]

Delighted to hear that Randy's chisels are behaving now.

I think Mike's suggestion is very pertinent. This is a view which I have heard often over the last 30 years. Although I don't have the technical knowledge to confirm, it makes good sense.

I wonder about opinions on tools from people who have not actually used them....... I am not aware of any chisels or plane blades which come ready for use without some work, back polishing and honing. The amount of work needed is highly variable.

Could some kind person please correct the spelling of the title of this thread?

 

[CHJ]

Hi Chas,
The chisels of modern manufacture I have bought or had experience with nearly to the last one has had problems of what I would call premature edge failure until ground or sharpened back a bit.
...snip.. Mike

I have gathered this from various comments here, it is of interest to me because in another life I had an extensive heat treatment facility (2+ mw) with inert gas argon furnaces etc. and processed many exotic alloys, obviously something is wrong with the handling of the blades if there is this inconsistency, either incorrect heating of thinner sections or damaging of the alloy when production grinding blanks to shape.

 

[MikeW]

Could some kind person please correct the spelling of the title of this thread?

And to think I use to get paid to proof read! Shows that the mind can interpret what the eye sees and correct things.

No wonder I use to proof read both forwards and backwards...Mike