Lie Neilsen / Veritas plane choices.

[ydb1md]

Possibly :lol:
Although you do have a bigger range of suckage...... :wink:
Philly

How did you know I was speaking in your direction . . .

 

[Philly]

Uum....ahhh...splutter :roll:
Philly :lol:

 

[dchenard]

Then Denis wrote:

but what do you get from the BUS that you don't with a LAJ using the same iron?

I agree that the LA Jack is a plane capable of superior performance as a smoother. But its length can have limitations. The longer the plane, the more it will reduce the thickness of a board when smoothing. A short plane rides the hill and valleys. A long plane removes the hills to get to the valleys. That said, Esc probably would not be as affected as his boards are flattened by a jointer before being planed. Still, I like to dedicate a plane as a smoother, and the LA Jack is too versatile to do this to. In the end it comes down to available finances.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I understand the theory, but in practice the BUS is 10" long, still two-thirds of the length of the LAJ (substitute your favourite brand here, this is not a LV issue). So there will still be spots of tearout that the BUS can't reach. Wouldn't it be better to have an even shorter plane to deal with tearout patches, like a #2 or thereabouts?

I have a short (4" or so) high angle Mujingfang that I've dedicated to that purpose, and I've contemplated getting the Veritas low angle block plane with the tote and knob attachment (tried it, works great) once finances permit...

The thing is, when tearout rears its ugly face, in practice it is deep enough that eliminating it leaves a "divot" in the board deep enough to be noticeable, no matter how one "feathers" it out. Sign of hand workmanship for sure, but there's a limit to what's acceptable...

So for me the logic tells me to err on the cautious side and use a plane with a high enough effective blade pitch to avoid tearout in the first place, back at the jointer stage.

A couple weeks ago I was cleaning up the outside of dovetailed drawers that I had built (14 in all). The wood was white birch, planes wonderfully with the grain, but is an absolute b***h against the grain. I tried regular pitch planes and ended with ugly tearout in spots. Switched to the LAJ with a 50 degree blade, no more problems...

If it seems like a waste to use a LAJ as a smoother because of its versatility, then buy a second one! :shock: :lol: Honestly, I've been thinking about it...

DC

 

[ydb1md]

I understand the theory, but in practice the BUS is 10" long, still two-thirds of the length of the LAJ (substitute your favourite brand here, this is not a LV issue). So there will still be spots of tearout that the BUS can't reach. Wouldn't it be better to have an even shorter plane to deal with tearout patches, like a #2 or thereabouts?

I use my no3 smoother quite a lot. I've never tried a no2 so I can't speak to that. My no1 does well but I will say that my LN 9-1/2 does just as good a job smoothing as the no1 does. Small smoothers definitely have their place in the shop.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Denis wrote:

I understand the theory, but in practice the BUS is 10" long, still two-thirds of the length of the LAJ (substitute your favourite brand here, this is not a LV issue). So there will still be spots of tearout that the BUS can't reach. Wouldn't it be better to have an even shorter plane to deal with tearout patches, like a #2 or thereabouts?

I have a short (4" or so) high angle Mujingfang that I've dedicated to that purpose, and I've contemplated getting the Veritas low angle block plane with the tote and knob attachment (tried it, works great) once finances permit...

I fear we are talking at cross purposes. I understand what you are saying about tearout, but I am taking about removing less surface area when smoothing (with a shorter smoother).

As you must know (I think we have so much info about each others workshop armoury by now!), I have many smoothers from which I can choose. My all out best smoother, certainly the one to ensure the absence of tearout, is the Marcou S15. It is simply the best smoother I have ever used. But it is a long smoother (11"), and sometimes too much for a task. At the other end of the spectrum I could use the LV "Little Victor" in scraper mode (75 degree cutting angle) or a Mugingfang mini smoother (60 degree cutting angle), but both are very narrow. So I could use the 7 1/2" infill I recently built. This is an extremely capable smoother and nearly as good as the LV BUS, but with a 1 3/4" wide blade.

So many options. Why use the LV BU Jack as a smoother?

Just a few ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[dchenard]

I now understand what you were referring to regarding available finances, with that kind of arsenal my available finances would be depleted too! :shock: :lol:

DC

 

[Escudo]

Thanks for all the replies and for taking the time to respond.

I will study these in detail, and with Alans help draw some conclusions.

Initial thoughts,

It would seem that the Veritas Low Angle Jack (otherwise referred to as the LV LAJ BU :wink: ) is a popular and well liked plane. It was on my list and seems like a winner.

By purchasing the above I could defer, for now, buying a dedicated smoother.

The block plane choice does not seem so clear with each of the respondents having a favorite. It did not escape my attention that a number have more than one of these handy little planes. I am drawn to the LN 102 bronze but suspect the answer here might be to handle and try a few.

It would seem that opinion is against the LN 140 skew (perhaps to specialized) and more in favour of a shoulder plane.

I will write again with my final conclusions when decided. Please keep the thread going if any further thoughts / comments occur.

On another note, I intend to purchase the LN chisels and a number of sharpening stones to go with my Tormek. I have also got my eye on the LN Tite-Mark gauge which I fiddled with (sorry examined) at Alans.

Cheers for all your kind and on going help, assistance and wisdom

Esc.

 

[Alf]

I intend to purchase the LN chisels

I'm tempted to say "make me an offer". ****, make me an offer anyway and if it's a good one... Set of five, leather roll, barely used, postage at cost.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Escudo]

Alf,

I am sorry, but it is difficult to offer for your chisels as I have already spoken to Classic Hand Tools about a set which they have to one side. I'm going for the Cocobolo handles with a spare Hornbeam handle.

This is part of a bigger order which will attract a discount, and I do not want to jeapordise my arrangement.

In any event, I'm sure if you want to move them on there will be plenty of suitors.

Esc.

 

[Alf]

No worries - just don't get cocobolo handles. Strictly for collectors. The A2 is lousy for paring (high angles required) and the cocobolo isn't as sturdy for hitting.

Cheers, Alf

 

[dchenard]

No worries - just don't get cocobolo handles. Strictly for collectors. The A2 is lousy for paring (high angles required) and the cocobolo isn't as sturdy for hitting.

Cheers, Alf

Do I gather that you don't like these chisels? :lol:

I have a sample of one LN chisel, with a cocobolo handle, and it has gone through the process of chopping a bunch of dovetails with hardly a dent on the handle. Maybe I stumbled on a tough sample :wink:

I was planning on bringing my chisel's bevel down to 20 degrees or so, but your and other comments I've read suggest I avoid doing that. I might just try anyway, out of stubbornness :roll: But the edge at 30 degree already doesn't hold as well as my Japanese chisels honed at 25, so...

Too bad, I really like the feel of the LN chisels...

DC

 

[paulm]

No worries - just don't get cocobolo handles. Strictly for collectors. The A2 is lousy for paring (high angles required) and the cocobolo isn't as sturdy for hitting.

Cheers, Alf

Oh no, I'm a collector :shock: :lol:

Couldn't resist the cocobolo handles that Mike Hancock had at Yandles and sprung for the set of five. Absolutely beautiful to look at and to handle. Have given them a few belts with a mallet to help seat the handles with no ill effects, so although they probably won't take a sustained beating they seem to me to be fine for more shall we say refined woodworking, but time will tell.

In any event, bieng a turner in my spare time (which there isn't much of !) I plan to turn up some spare handles in something more durable, haven't decided what yet, for those occasions when a bit more sustained encouragement might be needed.

Go on, treat yourself to the A2 and the cocobolo handles, like all beautiful things in life (women, cars, whatever.......) :shock: you will not worry much about the practicalities and enjoy them all the more for not bieng the practical, commensense choice.

Cheers, Paul

(showing definite collector symptoms :lol: )

 

[Alf]

Do I gather that you don't like these chisels? :lol:

Erm... well I suppose "sort of" would be closest. Like you, I really like the feel of them, and the fact I didn't have to mess with the backs at all. But A2 is not my favourite stuff and has real disadvantages with chisels of this sort IMO (unless you a. a wide range of other chisels, and b. you use a lot of very hard and abrasive timbers) , it'd be nice to have a forged chisel rather than machined, and I confess to having a problem with marketing the same chisel with a longer handle as somehow turning it into a paring chisel. Apart from that... :lol: No, they do have "something", they just don't tick enough boxes to make me entirely happy that I failed to resist them. :?

Maybe if they had cocobolo handles I'd be happier...? :-k :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Modernist]

Just to go back to the beginning I own all the LN's but (unfortunately) not the LA Jack.

I do like the standard pitch 4 1/2 which is a consistent performer and holds it's edge better than any other I've tried. I agree the 60 1/2 is a bit lacking in feel (stangely it seems too narrow for the weight for me). I went for a LH Iron 140 which is excellent for trimming tenons etc and I preferred the iron to the bronze on this occasion as strength in the mouth is inevitably compromised in this design.

As an afterthought I have recently bought a Veritas bull nosed shoulder plane which is such a beauty and has a superb feel that I am tempted to try some more from the Veritas stable. I did try the normal smoothers when I bought the LN but was not impressed. That was just after the launch and the exhibition samples were not at their best so maybe it was not a fair test.

 

[Escudo]

Thanks all for the responses to this post, very formative and helpful.

On the plane front I have decided for now to get -

The Veritas low angle jack plane, and
The LN 102 bronze block plane

As previously stated I am also getting the LN chisels, some sharpening stones and accessories.

This could be the start of that slippery slope, although, I didn't expect to be called a collector at this stage :wink:

Cheers, Esc.

 

[Keith Smith]

I think the Veritas low angle jack is a great plane and you won't be disappointed, the LN102 on the other hand is a great little apron plane, and fine if you have other planes to turn to, but can be limited because of the fixed mouth. If you have already ordered it you will use it a lot, but I think the Veritas low angle block would be more generally useful to you. Especially if you otherwise only have the LA Jack.

I too have a set of the LN chisels, they are very nice but IMHO only if you have another set of chisels for general use.

As for a third plane, if you have any money left by now :roll: how about the Veritas Bullnose, it does so many jobs well, small shoulder and rebate plus the nose is easily removed to convert it into a chisel plane.

Keith

 

[Chris Knight]

My LN 102 is probably my most used plane. It might be a case of "everything looking like a nail" but I have never found the fixed mouth to be a serious disadvantage. I have the LN 60 1/2 too but I hardly use that by comparison.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I have never found the fixed mouth to be a serious disadvantage.

I'm intrigued that so many users do not feel that an adjustable mouth on a block plane is necessary. That is the opposite of my experience. It depends somewhat on what you are planing, but I've found that when planing very small pieces (chamfering the end of a very small piece, for example) as the plane passes over the wood, the plane can drop slightly as the mouth passes over the wood, spoiling the work. It's all about the size of the mouth in relation to the size of the piece being planed. The way to avoid this is to close up the mouth as close as you can get it while still allowing the shavings to pass. Of course, if you can afford more than one block plane it doesn't really matter, but if buying just one, I would always recommend the low angle block with adjustable mouth.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

As regards Keith's thought, I think maybe the usefulness of the bullnose is open to some debate. Registering that vestigial nose on the work to use it as a shoulder plane can be done (and many have) but could be a world of aggravation for the tyro.

As for the adjustable mouth block plane - I bought into the thought that you must have one, I've even repeated the thought and spread the disease. Truth is, like Chris, I find reaching for a larger block plane is the exception rather than the rule. I wonder, could the difference be between the size of the fixed mouth on the old Stanleys and Records as opposed to the size on Ls N & V? I don't know - I resisted a whole load of old block planes just yesterday so have nothing to compare to. #-o Could it also be that generally fixed mouth blocks used to also equal not as good bedding/adjustments etc so generally weren't as nice to use, and that, again, is not an issue with the spendier blocks now available? I don't know - but I do know sometimes I go to do a task with my 103 and think "what foolishness - I'll end up getting the adjustable mouth one for this job in the end" but I do it anyway and it works and I really don't know why it should. Final thought aka teaching Paul to suck eggs - swinging the weight back towards the heel will help prevent any tendency for the mouth to dive over the work and swallow it up IME.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Interesting comments, Alf. I have no experience of fixed mouth block planes other than a Stanley 130 (which I no longer have) - mine are a Stanley #60.5, Record #09.5 and a Veritas low angle (far superior to the other two) all with adjustable mouths - so I can't comment on older and newer fixed-mouth blocks. However, from experience, I've often found that the workpiece can get caught in the mouth if the workpiece is small and the mouth not closed up. For work on larger pieces it's not really an issue. Having said all that, a lot of users rave about the LN 102 and say it's their favourite plane, so it must be good. At the end of the day, you pay your money and make your choice :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul