Juuma Vs Lie Nielsen Rebate (Rabbet) Block Planes?

[Inspector]

Another thread to unwatch.

Pete

 

[Adam W.]

Another thread to unwatch.

Pete

I thought your comment was perfectly valid Pete.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Another thread to unwatch.

Pete

Given I can only see ‘ignored content’ before your post that the thread is not worth watching, I can only surmise a specific poster is to blame. Consider ignoring the poster rather than the thread. My enjoyment of UJW has increased substantially since I took that step.

 

[Jacob]

Dear oh dear, are these objects sacred in some way? Sorry if I've hit on a sensitive issue, but I'm sure I'm not alone on this.
What about Veritas - haven't they gone down a parallel route?
Are they revered in the same way? They appear to be slightly more innovative, but not always successfully.
Basically more luxury goods for the well heeled hobbyist?
No reason why they shouldn't do their thing of course, but I really don't get the quasi religious reverence they attract.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

The Juuma rebating block plane arrived this morning - I diverted into checking it out and setting it up as it seemed as though it would be a good idea to share some findings while this thread was still live.

Bear in mind that the following pertains to the specific Juuma/Fine Tools example, and that there could (?) be quality differences between the various Quangsheng/Luban and related brands. It from a manufacturing point of view seems in summary to be spot on and very good value for money indeed.

The small size perhaps helps, but the sole and sides when checked with an engineering straight edge and square are nicely ground, flat and square to each other. Backlighting saw no visible light come through under the straight edge resting on the sole - see the pic. of the test taken with the iron installed and the cap tensioned.

The bed for the iron is milled but in practice is smooth enough to not catch a fingernail - and with the rear support (which the adjuster passes through) is very accurately aligned with the sole. It's also very flat - see the pic showing how the film of marking blue on a gauge block transferred all over it.

Both the iron and a spare bought with the plane are nicely ground and finished - the bevel is ground dead on square, the sides are parallel and the back flat. Both measured 44.40mm wide x 3.1 thick - for an overhang of 0.1mm. (0.004in total = 0.002in on each side of the body when centred)

The backs flattened quickly on a 1,000 grit waterstone with no need for ruler tricks etc. - which left them ready for finishing on finer stones. (see pic)

The surface finish on a Veritas iron is in comparison finer. (is lapped?) The task in prepping these ones is to polish out the (fine) texture left by surface grinding - which took longer than did the Veritas irons I've done.

The steel is listed as T10 carbon tool steel - it at first touch on a waterstone feels much like say O1. Time will tell how it does.

The (fixed) mouth as the iron just starts to emerge is around 0.7mm wide - quite tight but probably appropriate on a tool not designed to take heavy cuts. It's nice and square and the cutting edge when the iron is centred ends up parallel to the sole.

Having got the engineer's blue out I thought for the hell of it that I'd test the various surfaces of the body on a surface plate - see the later pics with blue on the various surfaces.

A fine film of blue is wiped on to the plate, and the relevant surface of the plane body is pressed down on to it - so that blue transfers where it contacts the plate. Blue all over means the surface is pretty much dead flat, misses mean an (in this case a very slight) hollow.

Bear in mind that this is an impractical/extreme test in that it'll pick up an out of flatness of a few 1/10ths of a thou (say 0.0004in) - much less than matters in use.

The sides proved to be dead flat. The sole almost so with a tiny hollowing towards the centre which could not be detected with straight edge and 0.0015in ( 1 1/2 thou) feeeler gauge or using a backlight as above.

Tightening the cap iron using the bronze wheel incidentally (but as is to be expected) produced a detectable increase in the hollow. The first pic of the sole with blue on is with no iron fitted, the second with the iron fitted and the lever cap tensioned.

All in all I'm very pleased. Just about the only (very minor) criticism I can make is to say that the polished dome of the bronze lever cap as delivered with a thick lower edge made access to the wheel a little fiddly.

This was easily resolved by setting the wheel lower on its threaded stud (to raise the back of the cap a few mm) and chamfering the relevant lower edges of the dome - see the last pic. A dragging/slight binding of the M6 wheel stud thread in the cap was fixed by running a plug tap in to bottom - perhaps the production tap was a little worn.

The nose of the bronze cap was making good contact all along its leading edge as delivered and would have worked fine, but since I was in the vicinity I used a diamond plate to give it a finer finish.

I couldn't be more pleased with the plane.

It's as before possible with a light mill to fit circular nickers (available as spares for a Veritas wheel gauge) a la LN and also a pair or even four Veritas style iron side to side locating grub screws (as on their shoulder planes) but mindful of the advice regarding use of a knife have no plans to do so unless the need arises in practice...

I have owned, and used for some time, the Quangsheng version of this plane (which I strongly suspect came from the same factory as your Juuma).

My experience is the same as yours - very high quality of materials and manufacture, very good quality of design detailing. Excellent value for money.

Living in the UK, I grew up thinking that the USA was the home of aggressive, slash-n-burn capitalism, and in many ways it is. However, there is and has long been, a streak of protectionism (which seems completely alien to 'pure' unadulterated capitalism) in US trade policy. This protectionism can be traced right back to the colonial days when manufactured goods were imported from (at the time) the largest manufacturing economy the world had ever seen (England). It just so happens that China is now that economy.

PS IMHO the only nickers worth bothering about are those that begin with a 'k'

 

[vaj]

My experience is the same as yours

That's intersting to hear Woody, I was a bit unsure what to expect when I ordered.

: ( Nickers with a K just don't inspire as once they might have be at my age....

 

[Jacob]

That's intersting to hear Woody, I was a bit unsure what to expect when I ordered.

: ( Nickers with a K just don't inspire as once they might have be at my age....

Like a lot of these clever "innovations" nickers look more useful than they really are. The 78 even has three, like a clover leaf, so if one gets blunted you have two more to go!
So it's knickers off for me too.

 

[MikeK]

Gentlemen, this thread has been moderated several times to remove prohibited content. If you want to keep this thread open, please stay away from political or moral discussions.

@Inspector, if you haven't already done so, you might consider using the Ignore function for any member you no longer want to see. The XenForo software will also hide the quoted text from ignored members when others quote them. Should you ever decide to have a peek at a hidden post to ensure you made the right decision, you can temporarily unhide a post without affecting the Ignore setting. However, this will temporarily reveal all hidden content by that member in the thread.

 

[Inspector]

Gentlemen, this thread has been moderated several times to remove prohibited content. If you want to keep this thread open, please stay away from political or moral discussions.

@Inspector, if you haven't already done so, you might consider using the Ignore function for any member you no longer want to see. The XenForo software will also hide the quoted text from ignored members when others quote them. Should you ever decide to have a peek at a hidden post to ensure you made the right decision, you can temporarily unhide a post without affecting the Ignore setting. However, this will temporarily reveal all hidden content by that member in the thread.

I appreciate you trying to help Mike but at this stage I'm beyond Ignoring. Instead of loosing it and swearing at all the forum's twits I'm going to take a hiatus for the summer. In the fall I will look back in again and if all the hand tool threads are continuing to be a bunch of silly arguing as they are now I will check out for good. I wish you all the best and have nothing but praise for you and the other mods however the conduct of enough of the membership makes this forum more of an aggravation than a place to be enjoyed.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Like a lot of these clever "innovations" nickers look more useful than they really are. The 78 even has three, like a clover leaf, so if one gets blunted you have two more to go!
So it's knickers off for me too.

Nickers again - they are supposed to help across the grain but I couldn't make it work very well on the 78 and in the end gave up and went for a knife line instead. Even then the planing was an untidy cut which I cleaned up with a rebate plane. It's quicker in the end!
I've done it quite often with raised and fielded panels - the trick is to take off the bevel of the field first with any standard plane and only then to take down the top edge with a 78 or rebate plane, to raise the panel, then standard plane to finish off. No5 for preference.
Has anybody else found nickers useful?

 

[Blackswanwood]

It’s a s

I appreciate you trying to help Mike but at this stage I'm beyond Ignoring. Instead of loosing it and swearing at all the forum's twits I'm going to take a hiatus for the summer. In the fall I will look back in again and if all the hand tool threads are continuing to be a bunch of silly arguing as they are now I will check out for good. I wish you all the best and have nothing but praise for you and the other mods however the conduct of enough of the membership makes this forum more of an aggravation than a place to be enjoyed.

Pete

Sorry to hear you feel like that Pete. The whole “my thoughts on tool choice are superior to yours” approach of a minority is both tiresome and toxic.

Take care and hopefully you will be back.

 

[Jacob]

It’s a s

Sorry to hear you feel like that Pete. The whole “my thoughts on tool choice are superior to yours”

I've never said anything of the sort, nor do I make veiled personal comments.
People should be able to exchange differing opinions without getting upset.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I've never said anything of the sort, nor do I make veiled personal comments.
People should be able to exchange differing opinions without getting upset.

Of course I wasn't thinking of your exemplary posts Jacob. You’re always the first to recognise that other people may have different but equally valid opinions to yours.

 

[Lefley]

Improved in what way?
Higher spec and higher prices yes, but no improvements or innovations other than the higher spec and build quality - at a price.
More marketing than anything, to serve an expanding and wealthier hobby market i.e. luxury goods.
No reason why they shouldn't do that of course, good luck to them.
No reason why anybody else shouldn't follow the same line, it's hardly original or innovative, it's simple low tech engineering very little different from similar items from over 100 years ago..
They used to moan about far eastern motorbikes, but they became highly innovative, improved and expanded into the wider automotive field with products far superior to the European and USA originals. Otherwise we'd be bombing about on Vincents and Nortons!
More interesting to consider why we couldn't keep up, rather than simply to condemn it as though they are all cheats!

It's called the price of labour!

 

[Lefley]

I appreciate you trying to help Mike but at this stage I'm beyond Ignoring. Instead of loosing it and swearing at all the forum's twits I'm going to take a hiatus for the summer. In the fall I will look back in again and if all the hand tool threads are continuing to be a bunch of silly arguing as they are now I will check out for good. I wish you all the best and have nothing but praise for you and the other mods however the conduct of enough of the membership makes this forum more of an aggravation than a place to be enjoyed.

Pete

Yes it gets pretty bad when you want to ask a question about sharpening or other related things and you just know what type of posts are going to follow immediately. I'd hate to be a new member doing it not knowing about certain characters and getting turned off forum immediately. Trying to ignore the twits works to some extent. But sometimes the management needs to think about the larger picture. Are certain individuals continue comments over the year really a positive thing, or an attack on people Or certain topics. two much of one ingredient always ruins a good pot of soup immediately.

I think the best advice I can give is just ignore people like that, if you give them absolutely no recognition at all. It's like they are talking to themselves all the time. We ourselves are falling into their trap when we comment, or argue with them. So Ignore works the best with those individuals. Just my two cents.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Yes it gets pretty bad when you want to ask a question about sharpening or other related things and you just know what type of posts are going to follow immediately. I'd hate to be a new member doing it not knowing about certain characters and getting turned off forum immediately. Trying to ignore the twits works to some extent. But sometimes the management needs to think about the larger picture. Are certain individuals continue comments over the year really a positive thing, or an attack on people Or certain topics. two much of one ingredient always ruins a good pot of soup immediately.

I think the best advice I can give is just ignore people like that, if you give them absolutely no recognition at all. It's like they are talking to themselves all the time. We ourselves are falling into their trap when we comment, or argue with them. So Ignore works the best with those individuals. Just my two cents.

Ignore works really well on this forum. I’ve occasionally had odd situations where someone seems to be arguing with themselves but generally it’s a very useful facility. I only have four people on my ignore list but with that very minimal level of filtering the experience here is very much better.
If you think someone you ignore might have posted something useful, it does happen, you can still read it without un-ignoring.

 

[Jacob]

.

........approach of a minority is both tiresome and toxic..........Of course I wasn't thinking of your exemplary posts Jacob. You’re always the first to recognise that other people may have different but equally valid opinions to yours.

...and I hate to say it but I don't seem to be in a minority.
You only have to look at this thread - or at my "reaction" score. You certainly can't say I go out of my way to get a positive response, but in spite of that I do seem get one! Thanks for the support chaps!

It'd be good if those recommending the ignore button took their own advice and stopped trailing around after me. It lowers the tone; they are the tiresome and toxic minority.

 

[Trafalgar]

These Chinese tool threads always come down to this -- one's favorite manufacturer's copy becomes sacrosanct, while another manufacturer's copy of a copy of a copy does not. There used to be such a thing as honor amongst thieves but there is apparently no honor amongst copyists. But make no mistake it's all a matter of degree - they are ALL essentially stealing somebody's design -- whether living or dead, and relatively minor tweaks here or there have nothing to do with whether still a copy or not because they all most assuredly are. Even the ghastly looking Lee Valley planes are essentially copies.

 

[Lefley]

These Chinese tool threads always come down to this -- one's favorite manufacturer's copy becomes sacrosanct, while another manufacturer's copy of a copy of a copy does not. There used to be such a thing as honor amongst thieves but there is apparently no honor amongst copyists. But make no mistake it's all a matter of degree - they are ALL essentially stealing somebody's design -- whether living or dead, and relatively minor tweaks here or there have nothing to do with whether still a copy or not because they all most assuredly are. Even the ghastly looking Lee Valley planes are essentially copies.

You are so right and some of the newer most expensive tools pride themselves in reinventing tools to make them better or the best as they say. Look at Woodpecker. They start there tools videos off saying just that. Even when we go to doctor we ask for the generic version of drugs. Thats why new drugs cost so much. They know they only have a 10 year window to the day before cheap copies are out, to recoup all cost associated with development. Only the rich have the luxury of not buying Chinese stuff. They have huge disposable income to choose to only buy made in your own country things. Paying out for decent wages in advanced countries, if a country had a proper tariff system in place to offset the low wages etc of third world countries even that would not work, as then we would have a larger black market system. Well I'm heading way off topic.
just my 2 cents.

 

[thetyreman]

the same thing has happened with guitars, people have copied the fender stratocaster and gibson les paul, but it's not the same as the USA made version which has better quality woods, pots, fretwire e.t.c, you get what you pay for in life, some squiers are alright but don't kid yourself, it's not a fender stratocaster.