Learning dovetail joint

[AJB Temple]

PS, taking a bit of set off lightly with a hammer works fine on hard point saws. I do it myself sometimes. Don't go crazy - just gentle taps. I find dealing with it on a stone tends to groove the stone (but I use water stones if I ever venture away from the linisher.)

 

[woodbloke66]

I've tried both and found no advantage whatever to Japanese saws, and the distinct disadvantage that you have to kneel on the floor to start any cut in the vice. So you pays your money and takes your choice.

I've been using Japanese saws for donkey's years now and it's bonkers :lol: to suggest that you need to kneel on the floor to start a cut in the vice. If cutting say a dovetail pin, I generally start the cut on the opposite side of the wood and track down the line gradually lowering my right (sawing) hand until the saw teeth are just clear of the line. The saw then is at about 45deg and the handle will be pointing towards the floor.

They are very much a 'learning curve' and not for everyone but once they're mastered and you understand how they work, you wonder why you ever used Western saws. I had LN dovetail thing a few years ago and it was truly ghastly to use! - Rob

 

[Trevanion]

Boy, am I glad for a router and a jig, seems so much less complicated :lol:

 

[AJB Temple]

Rob - I agree re Japanese saws, (learning curve but worth it - though I use both) but as a matter of interest how do you get on with rip cutting larger pieces of wood. My experience is a Japanese saw, even a big one, is pretty slow compared with a decent western style rip cut saw. Maybe it's just my bad technique.

I find Japanese saws immensely useful when working in confined spaces. One thing I always use a Japanese saw for is trimming oak pegs in framing. It's way easier than using a western saw I find.

 

[nev]

The OP asked a simple question and was I assume hoping for a helpful answer, not a couple of ''experts'' banging on endlessly about about who's right and who's wrong and who's dad is biggest.

Take it somewhere else please and let those that would actually like to try and help the guy (Thank you Richard) with friendly guidance rather than the Jacob 'my way, my way, my way, my way' ad infinitum until the OP has thrown away the saw and given up trying because some people cannot wind their neck in.

Back on topic please.

 

[woodbloke66]

Rob - I agree re Japanese saws, (learning curve but worth it - though I use both) but as a matter of interest how do you get on with rip cutting larger pieces of wood. My experience is a Japanese saw, even a big one, is pretty slow compared with a decent western style rip cut saw. Maybe it's just my bad technique.

I find Japanese saws immensely useful when working in confined spaces. One thing I always use a Japanese saw for is trimming oak pegs in framing. It's way easier than using a western saw I find.

Bearing in mind Nev's comment above, it might be worth starting a separate thread to discuss? - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

OK. :shock:

 

[large red]

Boy, am I glad for a router and a jig, seems so much less complicated :lol:

I said exactly the same thing, it's great to have the ability but for me woodworking is my hobby and unfortunately I get very little time to do it. Simply I would never achieve anything if I hand cut dovetails. Let alone re cutting saws. Not that I would

 

[twodoctors]

Boy, am I glad for a router and a jig, seems so much less complicated :lol:

I said exactly the same thing, it's great to have the ability but for me woodworking is my hobby and unfortunately I get very little time to do it. Simply I would never achieve anything if I hand cut dovetails. Let alone re cutting saws. Not that I would

I have gone the full circle to be honest... I guess that's why I got back to woodworking via bandsaw boxes. I couldn't cut straight with hand tools to save my life. Now that I have run out of room for bandsaw boxes (and getting a bit older but not necessarily wiser) I thought I should learn the basics again and see how I get on.

I do remember being taught to cut it with coping saw. Bringing back memories! Never was any good at it 27 years ago. :-D

So may I ask if these are better options than the Bahco I bought please? I'm a sucker for Amazon because of the very easy return policy:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/8in-Beech-Wood ... 045&sr=8-7
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Augusta-44011- ... 45&sr=8-14
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Z-Saw-H-150-Do ... 045&sr=8-4

Or should I just persevere with the Bahco?

And no. The only other wood handsaws I have are Irwin Tenon Saw and Rip saw. I have a coping saw but I haven't got any replacement blades for it (and I forgot where I've put the saw!).

I shall try Sgian Dubh's technique.

Adrian

 

[Andy Kev.]

You might want to look at some of the reputable second hand tools websites.

There is oldhandtools.co.uk, oldtools and tooltique for starters. If I remember aright they are all .co.uk.

You'll be able to get a good, old backsaw. On one of those sites they even give them a sharpening before selling, which is definitely a help because you don't want to saddled with sharpening saws as one of your first woodworking tasks.

 

[large red]

Boy, am I glad for a router and a jig, seems so much less complicated :lol:

I said exactly the same thing, it's great to have the ability but for me woodworking is my hobby and unfortunately I get very little time to do it. Simply I would never achieve anything if I hand cut dovetails. Let alone re cutting saws. Not that I would

I have gone the full circle to be honest... I guess that's why I got back to woodworking via bandsaw boxes. I couldn't cut straight with hand tools to save my life. Now that I have run out of room for bandsaw boxes (and getting a bit older but not necessarily wiser) I thought I should learn the basics again and see how I get on.

I do remember being taught to cut it with coping saw. Bringing back memories! Never was any good at it 27 years ago. :-D

So may I ask if these are better options than the Bahco I bought please? I'm a sucker for Amazon because of the very easy return policy:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/8in-Beech-Wood ... 045&sr=8-7
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Augusta-44011- ... 45&sr=8-14
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Z-Saw-H-150-Do ... 045&sr=8-4

Or should I just persevere with the Bahco?

And no. The only other wood handsaws I have are Irwin Tenon Saw and Rip saw. I have a coping saw but I haven't got any replacement blades for it (and I forgot where I've put the saw!).

I shall try Sgian Dubh's technique.

Adrian

I haven't used the Bahco, looks fine to me as do all of the above, it's hard to get great results with the timber you are using. There are several magnetic guides you can buy that I'm sure would help you get your hand in. Have a look at Jonathan Katz Moses on you tube. But honestly looking at what you have achieved you are nearly there. Just get some timber with a tighter grain. Mark with a knife, trim with a razor sharp chisel and practice. Dont take much from most of the above far too complicated, time consuming and completely unnecessary in the 21st century

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A couple of tips that might help a bit with sawing technique.

First - when starting the cut, don't drop the teeth onto the wood and then push (or pull). Instead, glide the tips of the teeth into the wood by starting the cut a tiny fraction above the wood, then lowering the saw as it moves fore and aft. Rather like bringing a plane gently in to land. The idea being that if you plonk the saw down, the teeth will dig in, and pushing or pulling will then require more force to get the saw moving, increasing the risk of the saw jumping or juddering sideways off the intended kerf line.

Second - saw slowly. That way, you can watch the progress of the kerf, and make any tiny corrections sooner if the kerf tries to deviate from the line. With practice, you can speed up, and your eye will be able to send the correction signals to your hand without needing conscious thought.

 

[thomashenry]

Hand cutting dovetails is really not that hard at at all. You just need to be able to saw straight across a very small distance. If you stay away from your lines, you can clean everything up with a chisel later. The skill is is doing it all 'straight from the saw'. But until you get to that stage, just take your time. I think by the time you've tried 5-10 dovetails, you'll be well on your way.

You could use a power router if you want, but for me there is zero pleasure in that

PS I use a Veritas 14ppi dovetail saw.

 

[Bod]

Thanks again to those who are trying to help.

Back to my original questions:

1) Do I need "more expensive" saw for this? (I'm guessing the Bahco is good enough)

2) What is the difference between left and right hand saw? Does it dictate the "clean" side and the "jagged" side? They also sell a combination one. I have no idea!

3) Should I find some hard wood and practise on those instead?




This was my best effort so far. Managed to snap the tail off by accident. Someone said it could be pallet wood. I did question whether the scrap pine wood I was using is (at least part of) the problem. It is either from my off-cut construction grade pine or reclaimed from a divan bed. Anyway you can see the joint is not that the tightest fit, but it is snug. There are still some gaps but I think it is probably mostly my technique.





So the key looks ok from one angle, but you can see the cut surface is quite rough. The tail was chiselled out as per Paul Sellers' method.





You can see the cut is not the cleanest. I don't know whether the kerf is too wide, but I guess I could have adjusted for it by moving the saw further to the waste side. These were done in two minutes and you can see my lapse in concentration in towards the end of the perpendicular cuts.

Would be grateful for any constructive feedback and suggestions.

I've started the process of sending the saw back, based on the feedback so far suggesting that it's the wrong saw for the job. Would be grateful if someone could suggest which model I might be better off with. Ideally below £20... I don't think I want to (and hope I don't need to) spend more than that.

I'll find some decent hardwood and have another few goes. I think the wood is part of the problem.

And practise, practise, practise!

Take care all.

Adrian

For early attempts, what you have done is good.
Cut off that joint, assemble it, and place it on the back lefthand corner of the bench.
Repeat making another joint, cut off, put beside the first.
Repeat, two or three times, then compare with the first, you will improve, even with the tools and wood you have.
My tip for sawing of any type, is to watch what the teeth are doing, then adjust the saw in the kerf for the next cut.
Remembering that because of the design of a saw blade, the teeth are wider than the blade, to prevent binding, and making the work easier.
As a result, the saw is steerable, you can control the direction of cut. On each stroke, check what has happened, adjust for the next stroke.
You will very soon be doing it automatically, and be able to cut a straight line.

Bod

 

[thetyreman]

aside from what's been already said it's worth checking the saw set, get an old eclypse saw set no77, learn how to sharpen and set it up, you can reset it by putting it on a hammer in the vice and flattening the teeth, then set it from scratch, you might be surprised by how much this improves performance.

 

[woodbloke66]

A couple of tips that might help a bit with sawing technique.

First - when starting the cut, don't drop the teeth onto the wood and then push (or pull). Instead, glide the tips of the teeth into the wood by starting the cut a tiny fraction above the wood, then lowering the saw as it moves fore and aft. Rather like bringing a plane gently in to land. The idea being that if you plonk the saw down, the teeth will dig in, and pushing or pulling will then require more force to get the saw moving, increasing the risk of the saw jumping or juddering sideways off the intended kerf line.

Second - saw slowly. That way, you can watch the progress of the kerf, and make any tiny corrections sooner if the kerf tries to deviate from the line. With practice, you can speed up, and your eye will be able to send the correction signals to your hand without needing conscious thought.

Agreed, but more importantly, you need to stand correctly. See wot I writ here - Rob

 

[Sgian Dubh]

So may I ask if these are better options than the Bahco I bought please?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/8in-Beech-Wood ... 045&sr=8-7

Or should I just persevere with the Bahco?

I see the Garlick saw you linked to, as above, is not available not unless you purchased one before stock ran out. But, whilst there would be no harm in buying a new, perhaps better saw, there's really no need to do so just to learn how to use a saw accurately. That Bahco saw you have is more than good enough for that purpose.

If you really feel the need to buy a replacement dovetail saw, there's plenty of choice at Axminster, here: https://www.axminster.co.uk/hand-tools/ ... gents-saws Of the selection I linked you to, I like the Lie-Nielsen which is essentially the same as my Independence Tool dovetail saw: Lie-Nielsen bought out Independence Tool about 15 - 20 years ago and carried on making that model and expanded the range of back saws. Just because I like that saw, it doesn't mean you will like it, and I note that Woodbloke (I think it was) states that he couldn't get on with his. He, on the other hand seems to quite like the Japanese style saws that cut on the pull stroke. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, lots of people like them, but they just don't seem to suit me, so I don't own one anymore (gave it away), and seldom have cause to unless someone for some reason wants me to have a go with one of their Japanese saws.

Of the other saws on that linked page, I'm not fond of the various Veritas back saws there. Again, they're pretty good saws from what I've seen of them in action, and from my own personal experience using them every now and then - I just don't like their feel and action, which is personal preference and maybe prejudice.

As for all the other saws on that page of roughly the same pattern as your existing Bahco saw, I imagine they're all much of a muchness, some maybe a bit better, some perhaps worse, with the slight oddball in that group perhaps being the Japanese Gent's saws which cut on the pull stroke rather than the push stroke. I'm not sure there's any advantage in that, and maybe there is, but I also note they're said to be very fine (28 TPI) which isn't really a tooth count well suited for cutting with the grain in thicker pieces of wood, e.g., 10 - 12 mm and thicker. I'd say they're better for working with relatively thin delicate material, such as 3 - 6 mm plywood and similar. Slainte.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi all,

So I've been trying to teach myself dovetail joint. I'm sure I was taught that a school 25 years ago, and I was never that good at it back then.

Bought myself a Bahco dovetail saw (Bahco PC-10-DTR Dovetail Saw Right 10in) and a cheap dovetail marker. Have been trying to copy what Paul Sellers does on Youtube with his desktop organiser video. I'm using off-cut pine for practice. My other off-cuts are plywood.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHcW_km ... pz&index=2

My "problem" is that I don't seem to get a very clean cut with the saw. The last one I cut was probably the best I've done so far, but the saw edges are not as clean as I would have liked. Looking elsewhere online, it looks like the issue might be with the pine.

My question is:

1) Do I need "more expensive" saw for this? (I'm guessing the Bahco is good enough)

2) What is the difference between left and right hand saw? Does it dictate the "clean" side and the "jagged" side? They also sell a combination one. I have no idea!

3) Should I find some hard wood and practise on those instead?

Thanks!

Stay safe.

Adrian

Hi Adrian

I waded through this thread, and now I shall keep my advice brief.

1. Since you are essentially just starting out with sawing dovetails, the type of saw will not mean a lot. For clean cuts, get a Japanese dozuki - the Z-saw brand is cheap but excellent. The blades are short, and this will add to increased control. The Bahco saw you have is crap for this purpose.

2. The wood you are practicing on is a recipe for a disaster. Pine is difficult to avoid chipping out, especially when chiseling, and ply wood will chip out as you look at it. It is not suited to dovetailing.

3. Clean cuts and gapless joints come from accurate sawing.

(a) You can mark the tails with pencil (assuming you cut these first), but you must mark the pins (when you transfer the marks) with a knife. In fact, I really eecommend trying out my blue tape method. This will really aid accuracy.

(b) You also have to saw accurately, not just to the line, but keeping the saw in the vertical. Watch this, especially with the pins.

Blue tape methods:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... ails3.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... eTape.html

Regards from Perth

Derek