Learning dovetail joint

[Ttrees]

Andy Lovelock has a two hour bonanza on saw sharpening, although it is a bit much for someone just looking to sharpen one dovetail saw.
Paul Sellers video's seems a more sensible approach for this.

Not meaning to derail the thread, I can start a new one at another time if more suitable.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to find ANY brass or steel backed saw and replace the plate if necessary with a hardpoint of decent quality and file your own teeth. ....
By a decent quality I mean that either the tooth stamping was done well, and/or the plate was hardened only on the toothline.
I only came to notice this after trying to lightly stone the cheapest DIY saw you can buy...
There is a load of polished kinks 3/4" up the sawplate all the way up, and I doubt it would make a good candidate.
These were probably apparent beforehand, I was dismantling timbers at the time and didn't care to check.
I have used other cheap saws for scrapers and I've not noticed this.

Cutting to the chase, I'm guessing that the steel is a bit softer so would make an ideal candidate
to learn cutting teeth.
I'd take a guess at some real old brass or steel backed saws can be a bit more difficult to work
(many cheapies on the bay are real old,
I have two with Drabble&Sanderson stamped on the brass backs, sometime from 1850's or something like that)
This I found out on an old panel saw recently, which had plenty of very hard areas, wore my saw files down correcting my numpty mistakes.

I'm thinking of doing this soon enough if my old dovetail and tennon saws are too brittle in use, or too corroded and bind too much.
I have collected a few, one or two bought just for the backs.

It will be interesting none the less if I have to replace the plates on these, and the new steel turns out to be too soft, not that that's so terrible.
If so, I will make a panel saw from one for hitting glass and nails.
A real skipdivers saw that can be fixed easily without unnecessary saw file destruction.

Having drilled sawplate before I know its a right pain to do.
I've read recently somewhere that some masonry drill bits have carbide tips which might be suitable for the job, what say ye?

Other than getting a vintage, or even replacing the plate on one you might have,
there is few choices in purchasing one unless you have deep pockets.
Pax, Veritas and maybe one or two others sell some in the lower priced range.
..
Unless you wish to have a Japanese pullsaw which you need unusual
files to sharpen them, or throw them away
Those teeth I hear are delicate, so it wouldn't be long before your in the same boat.
Compared to learning the skill of sharpening and always having a sharp more robust saw, it seems logical to go rust hunting.
Good luck
Tom

 

[MikeG.]

........I don't think it would be a bad idea to find ANY brass or steel backed saw and replace the plate if necessary with a hardpoint of decent quality and file your own teeth. ....

There wasn't any point reading past there. That's the silliest suggestion I have ever seen regarding sawing. It's almost as if you want to make sawing and saw maintenance as complicated as possible for a newcomer.

I've been sawing for 40 plus years and have never.....never....had need to replace a plate. It's completely and utterly unnecessary. And if you are to replace a plate, when in the name of the sweet baby Jebubs would you put a hardpoint plate in there, that can't be sharpened? Ridiculous. Utterly, utterly ridiculous. To suggest that for a beginner is beyond stupid. Grinding teeth off and starting from scratch is definitely NOT a beginner activity...........bloody hell man, he's struggling to cut a straight line with his first saw, and you're whittering on and on about changing plates. Sheesh. Honest to god, some people shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard.

 

[Bod]

........I don't think it would be a bad idea to find ANY brass or steel backed saw and replace the plate if necessary with a hardpoint of decent quality and file your own teeth. ....

There wasn't any point reading past there. That's the silliest suggestion I have ever seen regarding sawing. It's almost as if you want to make sawing and saw maintenance as complicated as possible for a newcomer.

I've been sawing for 40 plus years and have never.....never....had need to replace a plate. It's completely and utterly unnecessary. And if you are to replace a plate, when in the name of the sweet baby Jebubs would you put a hardpoint plate in there, that can't be sharpened? Ridiculous. Utterly, utterly ridiculous. To suggest that for a beginner is beyond stupid. Grinding teeth off and starting from scratch is definitely NOT a beginner activity...........bloody hell man, he's struggling to cut a straight line with his first saw, and you're whittering on and on about changing plates. Sheesh. Honest to god, some people shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard.

Well said.
This is why I asked for photos.
If it's "pallet" grade wood that's being used, then the best saw in the world won't help.

Bod

 

[worn thumbs]

I find this whole discussion a bit peculiar.We had a poster announcing that he was trying to cut dovetail joints and he described his saw.Since then we have had all manner of suggestions and I don't think he has cut a single dovetail.

The core issue is one of marking our a piece accurately and then cutting to those marks.If you don't have a perfect saw or enough experience of using one you just cut a little away from the line and clean up the piece with a chisel.After a bit of practice you will probably be confidently cutting a bit closer to the lines.It doesn't matter what the project is and erecting a mental barrier around the word "dovetail" may not be constructive.

Let the discussion about saw minutiae resume.

 

[twodoctors]

Thanks again to those who are trying to help.

Back to my original questions:

1) Do I need "more expensive" saw for this? (I'm guessing the Bahco is good enough)

2) What is the difference between left and right hand saw? Does it dictate the "clean" side and the "jagged" side? They also sell a combination one. I have no idea!

3) Should I find some hard wood and practise on those instead?

This was my best effort so far. Managed to snap the tail off by accident. Someone said it could be pallet wood. I did question whether the scrap pine wood I was using is (at least part of) the problem. It is either from my off-cut construction grade pine or reclaimed from a divan bed. Anyway you can see the joint is not that the tightest fit, but it is snug. There are still some gaps but I think it is probably mostly my technique.

So the key looks ok from one angle, but you can see the cut surface is quite rough. The tail was chiselled out as per Paul Sellers' method.

You can see the cut is not the cleanest. I don't know whether the kerf is too wide, but I guess I could have adjusted for it by moving the saw further to the waste side. These were done in two minutes and you can see my lapse in concentration in towards the end of the perpendicular cuts.

Would be grateful for any constructive feedback and suggestions.

I've started the process of sending the saw back, based on the feedback so far suggesting that it's the wrong saw for the job. Would be grateful if someone could suggest which model I might be better off with. Ideally below £20... I don't think I want to (and hope I don't need to) spend more than that.

I'll find some decent hardwood and have another few goes. I think the wood is part of the problem.

And practise, practise, practise!

Take care all.

Adrian

 

[That would work]

I don't think you should feel bad about that at all. For first attempts it's not at all bad.
You are using very low grade 'whitewood' pine. Next time try getting some slower grown (the anual rings are finer and closer together) redwood.
Also a few technique things...
Are you using a marking knife across the grain? Looks like no. Try using one and cut the shoulders just shy of the line and pare back with a sharp chisel.
But first, forget using that timber.

 

[MikeG.]

Yep, there's nothing wrong with your saw. Your wood is awful, and your work will be transformed in better timber. And as far as I know there is no such thing as a "left" and a "right" saw. Even if there is, there is absolutely no point in them for your work.

I wouldn't do anything to or with the saw until you get some nicer wood. If it is then cutting a bit rough, I would do as I've said a couple of times.......tap the set of the teeth down a bit with a hammer.

 

[Doug71]

And as far as I know there is no such thing as a "left" and a "right" saw. Even if there is, there is absolutely no point in them for your work.

Bahco have a saw system where you can buy either a left or right handed handle which takes removable blades. The blades are available as tenon saw, panel saw, floorboard saw etc. It is actually really good and heavy duty, the handle is really comfy compared to the normal thin plastic throw away type saws. It is not necessary for cutting dovetails though.

https://www.beatsons.co.uk/real-deals-2 ... des-p24526

 

[Ttrees]

As usual Mike you wern't paying attention to what I had said, and made up your own thing.
I'll not bother writing again, as I already said what might make sense to someone, fair enough it
doesn't seem to be this guy, but I'll bet many have a collection of old back saws that are in a lot worse state than
what you might see on ebay.

You seem to be so adverse to gaining skills that you don't deem useful, and lampoon on anyone who gives their two cents.
The saw might be OK for you, but what if it wasn't?
Suggesting technique is needed, when a real dovetail saw just works flawlessly
as mentioned by near everyone who finally tries out a suitable saw.
You always seem to be giving the impression to the novice that its their skill in use is terrible
and they just need to practice.
Equally as off putting to the newcomer, as what you think my "rant" is.
This is a forum you know, open to all perspectives and all that.
My advice was not to replace the plate if unnecessary, and if use the material to make yer own.

I have no doubt that your advice on hitting those teeth with an ammer will ruin any hardpoint saw's teeth.

There is no western saw that you can purchase for 20 quid bar ebay vintage what you can get for a few quid.
A "disposable to some" Japanese saw would be the cheapest new saw you could get in a rip pattern.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

1) Do I need "more expensive" saw for this? (I'm guessing the Bahco is good enough)

No. Your saw isn't great, but it's good enough to learn with.

2) What is the difference between left and right hand saw? Does it dictate the "clean" side and the "jagged" side? They also sell a combination one. I have no idea!

I'm pretty sure left and right relates to some saw makers that provide a handle separate to the blade that can be attached, one for left handers, and one for right handers, all to do with the shape of the grip, but that's irrelevant to you at this point. Forget 'clean' and' jagged', as well as 'combination', for now at least. With time and learning you'll be able to distinguish proper saw terminology, tooth patterns, saw types and their specialist purpose, and the like. You could even learn how to straighten a blade, file the correct tooth pattern on an existing dull saw, or even retooth a knackered saw from scratch. All such skills are completely pointless for you at this stage.

3) Should I find some hard wood and practise on those instead?

You can if you like. There's no need for the primary purpose of learning to cut accurately to a line.

And practise, practise, practise! Adrian

The above is the answer to all your difficulties, but you do need to know how to start right. I can't recall how many people I've taught how to use a saw, but here's a little primer on getting going.

First: grip. With that type of saw, wrap your hand around the handle, and point your index finger along the top of the handle towards the saw's back.

Next: the action. Hold the saw as described and stand up straight, feet close together. Now swing your saw holding arm backwards and forwards as if you're marching slowly so that your arm doesn't deviate through hitting your body. Once you've got that going, bend you arm at the elbow so that the saw is held roughly parallel with the ground and moves backwards and forwards without deviating. You now have the basics because one major cause of most learner's problems with sawing straight is the fact that their arm movement is impeded by their body, e.g., their elbow keeps hitting their body.

Third. To saw, you'll need to turn your body a bit to be able to saw to a line. So, a right handed user needs to turn clockwise a bit by moving their left foot forward taking the body with it whilst maintaining that the swinging action of the arm and straight pumping action of the hand/forearm, and at the same time making sure the saw arm doesn't get pushed out of line by hitting the upper chest. Left handers reverse the description just given.

Fourth. With that all going nicely, you need to get your right eye directly above the saw's back (or left eye if left handed) which usually means cranking your neck over a bit whilst keeping your head upright.

Finally, as far as basic action is concerned you'll have all the essentials in place because this action and the position of your head and eye will help you keep sawing straight. True, the backwards and forwards pumping action of the saw you've been practicing is too exaggerated for actual sawing, but the principle of the free, uninterrupted and monitored (eye above saw's back) progress of a cut is in place.

Set up some wood with fine straight marked lines to follow, fix the wood somehow so that those marked lines are as near to perpendicular to the ground as you can judge, bend over as needed (prepared to to start and maintain that interruption free movement) and do some sawing. Yes, you'll have to start by guiding the saw onto the mark with your non-saw holding hand, using a thumb (probably) to get the blade in the right place, make adjustments to your stance and position in relation to the target mark on the wood, learn how to start the cut so that the saw doesn't snag, nor jump off the marked line and cut your thumb, and take shorter strokes than you've practiced, but you should fairly quickly get the idea.

Another common learner's mistake is to continue cutting to a line whilst looking over to one side of the saw or the other to check on progress. This usually results in the saw leaning to whichever side you're looking. In other words, look over to the right side, and the saw will lean to that side, and looking over to the left will result in the saw leaning to the left. If you need to check if you're drifting off your line, stop sawing, have a look, make an adjustment if needed, and restart cutting.

Eventually, it should all come together to the point where, if you're like me, I just saw any old casual way I feel like, sometimes not even really looking at what I'm doing once I've got started, or turning and talking to someone, and you'll stay cutting true. I think that kind of familiarity is called muscle memory. Slainte.

 

[MikeG.]

As usual Mike you wern't paying attention to what I had said, and made up your own thing.

Maybe you are unaware of what you wrote. It's right there in quotes at the top of my reply. You suggested replacing a plate with a plate from a hardpoint saw...and this to a guy who has just bought his very first saw. You don't get to turn this around and say I'm at fault..........your post was wildly inappropriate.

You seem to be so adverse to gaining skills that you don't deem useful, and lampoon on anyone who gives their two cents.

Here is a thread in which I take a destroyed hardpoint saw and re-make it, including grinding the teeth off and filing a new set. I accept your apology.....you know, the one you'll never offer.

The saw might be OK for you, but what if it wasn't?

A beginner picks up his first saw and can't make it work nicely. In fact, doesn't even know if it is working nicely. And what do you suggest? The most laughably ridiculous solution imaginable. Almost like you're taking the piss. Buy another saw, extract the plate from it, and put it into your original saw, then grind the teeth off and file yourself a new set of teeth...........and all that for a guy who has just picked up a saw for the first time in his life...... You're trying to justify the unjustifiable. Your response was stupid.

Suggesting technique is needed, when a real dovetail saw just works flawlessly
as mentioned by near everyone who finally tries out a suitable saw.
You always seem to be giving the impression to the novice that its their skill in use is terrible
and they just need to practice.

You haven't the first idea, have you. If you gave a beginner a hardpoint saw plate and said "stick it in that saw over there, grind the teeth off and file yourself a new set" how many skills does that involve?

Here's what a professional cabinet maker/ teacher says:

.......... You could even learn how to straighten a blade, file the correct tooth pattern on an existing dull saw, or even retooth a knackered saw from scratch. All such skills are completely pointless for you at this stage.

And practise, practise, practise! Adrian

The above is the answer to all your difficulties.........

So yes, technique here is everything. You can stuff about replacing plates, but the rest of the world is going to get on and cut some joints in the meantime.

I have no doubt that your advice on hitting those teeth with an ammer will ruin any hardpoint saw's teeth.

You've never done any woodworking, have you. This works.

There is no western saw that you can purchase for 20 quid bar ebay vintage what you can get for a few quid.

Do you understand the word "parse"? This doesn't.

Here's a decent gent's saw, perfect for dovetailing, for under £20. But why suggest buying that? Surely a complete beginner should be buying a hardpoint saw and transfering its plate to their other saw, grinding the teeth off and filing in a new set. I mean, that's obvious, isn't it.

 

[nev]

:roll:

 

[jeremyduncombe]

You're trying to justify the unjustifiable.......You haven't the first idea, have you........You've never done any woodwork, have you..........Do you understand the word "parse"? This doesn't.

I used to enjoy reading the varied contributions to this forum. Even Jacob, for all his quirks, was often entertaining and sometimes had something useful to say. Now you have managed to get rid of him, a small number of regular contributors are competing to take over the position of chief resident troll. MikeG, you are by far the worst offender. Your posts are characterised by aggression and spite, and endless belittling of anyone you take a dislike to. You are a prolific contributor to this forum, and you have skills and experience far in excess of mine - but you do not own this forum. Please treat others with respect even if you disagree with them. If you continue like this, the forum will soon be reduced to a few embittered trolls endlessly sniping at each other, and what would be the point of that ?

 

[Ttrees]

Why didn't you just suggest that Pax saw in the first place Mike?
That's what I would buy instead of using that Bahco yoke of a thing.

Apologies for that Mike
You do deem the skill of saw sharpening useful, strange to me that you wouldn't recommend it though.

I was suggesting buying a vintage saw that would be in good nick.
If the OP didn't already have a few old back saws that were too far gone , too far gone I mean one that is
tested beforehand and has a noticeable problem not related to sharpening, then why not give replacing the plate.
It wasn't clear to me if this Bahco was his very first saw, he might have had a box of rusty ones.

Once again this is a forum which discussion leads to conversation which can drift.
You have an issue with pigeon holing topics.

That Bahco saw is pants and none of you would be putting up with it.

Tom

 

[MikeG.]

I'm sorry you didn't like those posts, Jeremy. They were certainly intemperate. However, my concern is with a complete newcomer to woodworking who doesn't have any way of sifting through the advice he receives ...being told to do something so complex that it could possibly put him off the hobby for life. TTrees does this with newcomers all the time. If it's not this nonsense it's cap iron adjustment for a guy who has never even sharpened a plane iron. Please put me on ignore and enjoy the forum without me. I'm only concerned that our hobby doesn't lose newcomers because of ludicrous advice making the whole thing just seem way more complicated than it actually is.

 

[Ttrees]

I don't think anyone could be put off for life by anyone's threads, as we have a thing called Youtube which is where
the majority of folks go before this place.
Paul Sellers dosen't seem to think that sharpening a saw is some sort of technique that is only for the gods.
I reckon that copying his methodology will be a whole lot easier, skilful, and beneficial
than trying to get an acceptable dovetail with that Bahco saw, even after a cutting a hundred dovetails.

 

[worn thumbs]

Looking at the gaps on the assembled dovetail and the fact that pencil lines are visible I would recommend using a sharper pencil to do the marking out.Your chances of success will improve if you have a really fine line in the right place.A scribed line is probably the thinnest you will get but there are instances where you wouldn't want it seen on the finished item.Even so ,for a first attempt it isn't a complete disaster and could be an ideal practice piece for learning how to bodge it into usefulness.They tell me that PVA glue and sawdust can be useful and with experience you get to use less sawdust.Just keep cutting them with the tools you have available and they will get better.I expect that most of us here have had to get a job done with sub-optimal tools more than once and that in itself is a skill worth having.Otherwise you never get anything done while waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to materialise.

 

[woodbloke66]

If the kerf is noticeably wider than the thickness of the plate then it may well be worthwhile taking a hammer to the side of the teeth on a hard flat surface to reduce the set.

Cutting the tails, by the way, requires no accuracy other than that the cut is straight across the board. The cut lines down the board are pretty much irrelevant. It's the pins where you need to be precise.

Rather than take a hammer to the teeth, a much better way is to reduce the set is to use a sharpening stone. Place one end of said stone against the spine resting the face against the 'sticky up' teeth. Give the teeth three or four strokes and repeat for the other side but don't take off too much or the saw will need to be reset. A little and often, then see how it cuts - Rob

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Paul Sellers dosen't seem to think that sharpening a saw is some sort of technique that is only for the gods.
I reckon that copying his methodology will be a whole lot easier, skilful, and beneficial
than trying to get an acceptable dovetail with that Bahco saw, even after a cutting a hundred dovetails.

This spat going on between you and Mike is unnecessary. I'm afraid I do think you are on technically weak ground here. I couldn't understand in your second post in this thread why you talked about taking plates out of one saw, and sticking it into the back of another saw, filing teeth, and whatever else you discussed.

The poor guy just wanted to learn how to cut to a line - he didn't need any of that information you provided. Discussing saw sharpening is also irrelevant to Adrian ... at this stage. Yes, later maybe, but all he wants to do for now is to learn how to use a saw, the most basic of saw skills. I've used a couple of examples of those Bahco saws, as well as a few of their other hardpoint saws. I've never owned one myself, but I've used the apprentice joiners' Bahco 'Gents' or dovetail saws several times to demonstrate to them good sawing technique, as well as demonstrating technique with other examples of similar cheap (-£10) hardpoint saws. None of them are the best saws in the world, but they can all definitely cut accurately to a line, unless they have suffered some sort of damage in use, or came out of the factory poorly manufactured.

Personally, I think if we can just get Adrian going on the basics, there's a good chance the rest can follow at a later stage, assuming he remains interested. Slainte.

 

[AJB Temple]

Chaps. Let's chill. Edit: Sorry - my post was sent seconds after the above - no intent to preach or duplicate.

OP. It is pretty hard to cut good dovetails in very soft wood. The wood compresses very readily, often tears quite easily unless your saw and chisels are very sharp, and generally is a pain.

If you want to learn woodwork, then you will not be wanting to spend your time fettling saws. Your first job is to get hold of some hardwood. I can send you a bit of oak to plat with if you like as I have literally shed loads of it. You just need to cover the postage. You will find hardwoods (beech, oak, ash - anything really) much better than softwood to elevate your skills. If necessary get old "brown" furniture dirt cheap from auctions and junk shops or charity shops, and start cutting it up.

Don't obsess on the tools. You can do perfectly decent joints with pretty much any sharp tenon saw or dovetail saw or carcass saw and don't fret about rip cut or cross cut. You get what you pay for though and I would keep my beadies open for say a used Veritas or decent brand on eBay etc.

Japanese saws are fine, Western saws are fine. They all do the job. I use both and they each have their strengths.

Presumably you have a little coping saw for cutting out the waste? Cheap as chips. I have seen a good cabinetmaker cut entire dovetails just with a coping saw. You need a chisel. Say 1/4". Needs to be sharp. Don't get obsessed on sharpening either - fretting over such a quick and basic job is a waste of energy.

From looking at your cuts I would say you may be forcing the saw a bit. Just relax and go slowly: let the saw do the work. If you are splitting the wood, as appears to be the case, then you either have blunt tools, or are using too much force or both. Small joints are delicate, so be gentle.

Keep at it. Experience comes from practice. It's good that you are trying to get it right: shoddy work comes from people who practice their mistakes :lol: