Labour's Employment Rights Bill

[Delaney]

I'd query the idea that it's a choice between two ideologies. They aren't easily defined in spite of endless discussion and ongoing arguments forever.

Immigration isn't really a problem, it's just a fact of life and has been going on forever. In fact in most ways it's a boon and we all benefit.
If it stopped the objectors would likely find their quality of life diminished.
But it's a convenient target for those who find life problematic and play the blame game. They tend to target the most vulnerable in society, rather than the real culprits; successive governments and the powerful pressure groups behind them.

Jacob you keep repeating this debunked myth about immigration as a boon and net benefit, yet when I present to you data showing the very opposite, you simply call it false, tell me the article does not say what it actually says and repeat your mantra.

You rail against low wages, the hardships of the working class, the unfairness of the ‘land and gentry’ yet espouse immigration myths that serve only to destroy the working class.
Your immigration guff, is what Amazon would be whispering in the ears of politicians.

And don’t forget. The article below was written in 2014 when immigration that IS a net drain to our economy, was around 10’s of thousands a year. Now it is in 100’s of thousands and now including illegal immigration which last counted cost £8m a day and rising ralidly.

Only a hopeless ideologue can say that all of this is a benefit when it is empirically not.

I will link the article again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373

Here are some excerts:

“And this group is the biggest - non-EEA immigrants make up two thirds of the UK immigrant population. So both groups of immigrants - EEA and non-EEA - considered together, take out around £14,000 more than they put in, amounting to a deficit of around £95bn for the public purse between 1995-2011.”

“Non-EEA immigrants each took out about £21,000 more than they put in during that period”.

“Two groups are generally believed to be clear beneficiaries of immigration - the immigrants themselves, who move from poor countries to ones where more opportunities are on offer, and the employers of cheap labour.”

“One, by George Borjas of the Harvard Kennedy School, makes the point that migrants who move to the US reduce the wages of competing workers.”

 

[Jacob]

Jacob you keep repeating this debunked myth about immigration as a boon and net benefit, yet when I present to you data showing the very opposite, you simply call it false, tell me the article does not say what it actually says and repeat your mantra.

You rail against low wages, the hardships of the working class, the unfairness of the ‘land and gentry’ yet espouse immigration myths that serve only to destroy the working class.
Your immigration guff, is what Amazon would be whispering in the ears of politicians.

And don’t forget. The article below was written in 2014 when immigration that IS a net drain to our economy, was around 10’s of thousands a year. Now it is in 100’s of thousands and now including illegal immigration which last counted cost £8m a day and rising ralidly.

Only a lure ideologue can say that all of this is a benefit when it is empirically not.

I will link the article again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373

Here are some excerts:

“And this group is the biggest - non-EEA immigrants make up two thirds of the UK immigrant population. So both groups of immigrants - EEA and non-EEA - considered together, take out around £14,000 more than they put in, amounting to a deficit of around £95bn for the public purse between 1995-2011.”

“Non-EEA immigrants each took out about £21,000 more than they put in during that period”.

“Two groups are generally believed to be clear beneficiaries of immigration - the immigrants themselves, who move from poor countries to ones where more opportunities are on offer, and the employers of cheap labour.”

“One, by George Borjas of the Harvard Kennedy School, makes the point that migrants who move to the US reduce the wages of competing workers.”

"Employers are going to benefit from migration because they are going to pay lower wages than before,"
Simple - make that illegal with much more control of wages and conditions of work!
Maybe make immigrants join unions before they can work?
Actually your article (10 years old) is rambling, discursive and you can pick out the bits you want to believe.
Over and above everything is the massive humanitarian issue of people moving away from troubled areas of the globe. If this was prioritised everything else might follow in a constructive way.

 

[Scruples]

The surveys' accuracies do, indeed, depend on the questions asked, and who is asking them. The answers. too. would depend on whether the respondent was free to voice their opinions without censure or stigma.

And you're right, there is little sympathy for rioters or law breakers. The state would like us to believe that all activists are criminals, which is not the case. Just as having negative views about immigration does not make a person racist. It's just government spin amplified by the media. After all, the governments of the day, encouraged immigration and so, now, have to deal with it.

The same nationalist attitudes that were the strengths that kept the people strong in two world wars are now being discouraged. That will have future consequences.

We are in interesting times and I'm sort of glad that I am closer to the end than the beginning of my time.

 

[Chris152]

I full heartedly support someone being offensive. The alternative is a society in which everyone is scared to speak.
I genuinely can’t believe there are people that cannot see how being offensive whether deliberately or not, is a fundamental part of western vales and living in a free society.
It’s scary.

Queue subversive ideologies saying ‘what exactly are western values’?

And are you also all in favour of offensive behaviour, or is it just offensive speech that you 'full heartedly support'? Launching an offensive on hotels where innocent families are trying to survive, for example?

 

[Fergie 307]

I agree in general but I think we have to be a bit careful how we phrase certain things. In both world wars people from all over the empire pitched in with us, and thank goodness they did. These people were both racially and religiously diverse, but were generally welcomed. So racism and religious intolerance were certainly not a basis for our wartime strength.
And to be clear I am not suggesting that you were implying in any way that they were.
Unfortunately both seem to be at the heart of the rather different sort of "Nationalism" advocated by the likes of the EDL.
Then again you only have to look at the case of the chap who happily takes a break from his "patriotic protest" to do a bit of looting, in his very distinctive George cross shirt and with his face clearly visible. Now charged and remanded.
These people are not exactly intellectual giants.

 

[Delaney]

And are you also all in favour of offensive behaviour, or is it just offensive speech that you 'full heartedly support'? Launching an offensive on hotels where innocent families are trying to survive, for example?

You haven’t defined offensive.
You’ve simply tried to silence any form of rational discussion by summoning some sort of correlation between ‘offence’ and suffering families living in fear, which is a wild and almost unhinged comparison.

 

[Chris152]

You haven’t defined offensive.
You’ve simply tried to silence any form of rational discussion by summoning some sort of correlation between ‘offence’ and suffering families living in fear, which is a wild and almost unhinged comparison.

Struggling to think at your level I'm afraid.

 

[Delaney]

"Employers are going to benefit from migration because they are going to pay lower wages than before,"
Simple - make that illegal with much more control of wages and conditions of work!
Maybe make immigrants join unions before they can work?
Actually your article (10 years old) is rambling, discursive and you can pick out the bits you want to believe.
Over and above everything is the massive humanitarian issue of people moving away from troubled areas of the globe. If this was prioritised everything else might follow in a constructive way.

It’s not rambling at all. It clearly shows that you are factually wrong on almost every single point you invent regarding immigration.

You just will not admit to any of it even if you are confronted with the evidence.
You claim it is 10 years old as if that disqualifies the evidence, even though your entire belief system is built on historic ‘evidence’ which it turns out you never really had and what ever evidence you thought you had turned out to be wrong.
Further more, 10 years ago there was far less immigration, so now the cost is just much higher, to the point it is bankrupting us. The very opposite of your dismissive statement. Unless 1+1 does not = 2 (although I dare tempt you).

The safest, most educated, wealthiest, high trust, honest and most democratic countries in the world, are small, north European ethno states.
That is a fact.
What you decide to do with that information, once it passes through your filter, is on you and you alone, it does not change the facts.

Immigration can be good, it is good to build relationships and some diversity is good.
The flat out, flat earther immigration movement, spear headed by what Jews woukd call ‘people of self loathing’, is not good, it’s not safe and it empirically is not going to make us all better off.

 

[Delaney]

Struggling to think at your level I'm afraid.

Clearly

 

[martin45]

Delaney said:
"The safest, most educated, wealthiest, high trust, honest and most democratic countries in the world, are small, north European ethno states."

Australia , New Zealand ????

 

[Sideways]

I'm locking this thread.
We started with a reasonable and interesting discussion of a piece of proposed government legistlation that will affect all of us in one way or another, and that discussion has been dragged off onto the same old, same old pro and anti immigration debate.
Give it a rest !