Labour's Employment Rights Bill

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unite in the news:
"The head of Unite, Sharon Graham, has already been applying pressure on the government to change its fiscal rules so it can borrow more to invest in infrastructure and public services.
The union leader told Reeves that people “haven’t got time to wait for growth” after Labour put boosting economic output at the heart of its plans to repair the country’s finances."


Spot on Sharon!

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ctor-workers-set-for-above-inflation-pay-rise
Government infrastructure investment is typically long term (20+ years) and includes things like major roads, hospitals, bridges, railways, education, military etc.

There should now be a surplus over current spending, arising from investment over the last 30-50 years. This conveniently covers investments initiated by both Labour and Tory governments. It is evident that no surpluses exist - tax or debt increases are the likely be the outcome.

The invest to save argument is flawed - an exercise in political smoke and mirrors. Reality:
  • at no time in the last 30 years (AFAIK) has identifiable evidence been able to prove the surplus generated by earlier investment
  • the UK invests substantial amounts in a large number of new projects every year. They are individually unremarkable, and should be budgeted as a normal part of cash allocated.
  • only for very material investment should a longer term separate funding appraisal be used which clearly articulates the benefits and how they are to be measured.
Sharon Graham's desire to change the fiscal rules is flawed political logic at work. Calling something "investment" does not reduce the cost to zero. Spending more borrowed money simply increases the deficit.

I hope Rachel Reeves in her pursuit of fiscal responsibility is not seduced by this sort of nonsense.
 
And a major force in decimating theit own industries and employment. Wonder how much money scargill and the like lost whilst ordering the sheep ( sorry members) to go on strike therefore not get paid??
Thatcher presided over the big sell off.
 
.... Spending more borrowed money simply increases the deficit.

....
I agree - taxation is a better idea; use the wealth we've got rather than increase debts.

Interesting how the message coming from the right is always that we can't do anything about anything, that things must take their course and if things don't work it has to be somebody's fault, probably immigrants.
 
I agree - taxation is a better idea; use the wealth we've got rather than increase debts.

Interesting how the message coming from the right is always that we can't do anything about anything, that things must take their course and if things don't work it has to be somebody's fault, probably immigrants.
Maybe the solution is for the people of the UK to actually live within its means for a period until debt relative to earnings falls?

Why do you suppose the UK's debt is so huge?
The short answer is that UK citizens have been living on borrowed money, borrowed by successive governments to fund everyday living expenses instead of living on what the country could actually afford.
Sooner or later it had to come and now we're close to the day of reckoning.
Materialism comes at a cost. Not enough taxation has been paid by the ordinary taxpayer. When the top 1% of all taxpayers pay over 30% of the tax burden and the 10% between them pay over 60% of the tax burden then there is something seriously wrong somewhere.

Until the majority of the population pay their fair share of the tax burden then you'll never have the fair society that socialists fantasise about.
 
I think socialists forget one important thing. Without people risking their money in the private sector by investing it in businesses etc, there would be NO work for most people and the majority if it was left to them, would simply starve!

In state run industries there should be no lifetime guarantees of jobs unless they are experts/specialists in their field who would be very difficult to replace, otherwise state jobs should have a finite length of employment and then the next batch of taxpayers who actually fund the industries could get their share of the work if they want it. What could be fairer than that?

The same applies to civil servants. Of course there are specialist jobs in there but there are many jobs that the average person with reasonable educational standards could easily do with basic training. I see no reason why a person should get a job for life with the state which could be done equally well by other taxpayers.
Definitely a contender for this weeks Farage award!
 
Maybe the solution is for the people of the UK to actually live within its means for a period until debt relative to earnings falls?
We tried that. Still on the cards - it's called "austerity". We've had it for 45 years and it has failed utterly, instead wealth has drifted upwards to a massive extent.
Why do you suppose the UK's debt is so huge?
The short answer is that UK citizens have been living on borrowed money, borrowed by successive governments to fund everyday living expenses instead of living on what the country could actually afford.
I agree. Tax the rich and use existing wealth rather than pie in the sky!
Sooner or later it had to come and now we're close to the day of reckoning.
Materialism comes at a cost. Not enough taxation has been paid by the ordinary taxpayer. When the top 1% of all taxpayers pay over 30% of the tax burden and the 10% between them pay over 60% of the tax burden then there is something seriously wrong somewhere.
Yes, not high enough taxation at the top. Rates are at a record low.
Until the majority of the population pay their fair share of the tax burden then you'll never have the fair society that socialists fantasise about.
It's not about "fairness" its about practical necessity. Borrowing money, or relying on future growth, are both unstable and unpredictable. Instead we have to redistribute wealth from the top downwards.
It's weird how so many people chip in in defence of the mega rich hanging on to their ill-gotten gains. Do they expect a reward of some sort, in heaven perhaps? More like never never land!
 
Last edited:
It will be interesting to see what Rachel Reeves has to say on Monday.

Rachel Reeves has said she would give a statement to Parliament on Monday showing “honesty” about the scale of the challenge faced by the new Labour government. She vowed to "fix the mess we inherited" but would not confirm speculation that the gap in the public finances stood at more than £20bn per year. That 'gap' depends on how much Labour intends to spend and over what period of time.

The Conservative Party accused the new government of "peddling nonsense". Britain now has the fastest rate of growth in GDP of all the G7 countries, and as was promised by Sunak and Jeremy Hunt, inflation is now down to 2% - the Bank of England's target rate:


1722069563435.png


Labour will suggest the Conservatives left various crucial public services unfunded in areas from public pay to prisons.

Few would argue with that, but it takes little account of the damage and costs burden to the economy caused by Covid 19, almost two years of lockdown, Furlough, and support for business, (true, much of it was fraudulently exploited, and millions were wasted on PPE procurement). Furthermore, the worldwide hike in energy costs which affects the price of everything. In the winter of 22/23, the mantra was 'old people had to choose between heating and eating'. It was nonsense. Every household received £400 fuel support that winter, (total cost of that was £9.1 billion), over 65s received £200 winter fuel allowance and over 80s received £300. I was 82 back then, and that £700 government handout didn't just pay the excess costs incurred by the energy price hike - it paid my gas bill for the whole winter.

"On Monday, the British public are finally going to see the true scale of the damage the Conservatives have done to the public finances," a Labour source said. "They spent taxpayers’ money like no tomorrow because they knew someone else would have to pick up the bill. It now falls to Labour to fix the foundations of our economy and that work has already begun."

When they say 'someone else is going to pick up the bill' that can only be the taxpayers.

It sound to me like setting the stall out for more tax rises or borrowing. ( On what did the Conservatives 'spend money like there was no tomorrow'?)

Labour has pledged not to raise taxes "on working people" including most aspects of National Insurance, income tax and VAT. Some economists suggested during the election that many of these spending pressures, and the possibility taxes would need to be raised to fund them, were obvious and should have been made clear to the voting public.

Rachel Reeves has said: "The number one mission of this new government is to grow the economy, and to grow the economy we need to attract wealth creators to Britain," she said. "We can't tax and spend our way to higher growth and to greater prosperity. We need to attract business investment to be able to do that."

That a refreshing and novel concept for a Labour Government to announce - she sounds like a Tory, but I'm not that sure that the 'new deal for workers' (not of her doing), will necessarily help achieve that aim, but compared the most EU countries, notably France & Germany, the UK is starting to look like a safe bet for inward investment. With France politically and economically unstable and falling out of favour, Vivendi - a French firm, has just announced that it will list it's Canal+ TV business on the London Stock Exchange - not France, and Shein - a Chinese clothing firm - is likely to later this year.

Time will tell - Monday's announcement isn't a budget - that comes in Autumn.

As to who put labour in power, there's an interesting report at the link below, which looks at age, social class, income levels etc with some surprising results. For example, educationally, those with GCSE or lower, 28% voted labour, those with a degree or higher, 42%. In terms of income level, Under £0k, 33%,, £50K+ 40%, £70k plus, 40%. Social grade: ABC1 (Professional, managerial, skilled): 36%. C2DE (Semi skilled unskilled, economically inactive): 33%.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

Labour won 34% of all votes cast in the UK, and under the UK’s 'First past the post' system, 63% of all seats in the House of Commons. By the same token, 66% of voters voted for parties other than Labour and therefore “against Labour”. (40% of those eligible to vote didn't do so). Personally, I'm really pleased that it wasn't a 'hung parliament' with Labour relying on the support of the fringe parties to get anything done.

Early days.
 
Last edited:
Reeves is just looking for excuses and someone to blame for her forthcoming tax hikes,

As to who put labour in power,
That was the conservatives who put them in power, only 1 in 6 of the uk population if I remember the numbers.

I am not sure if the claimed removal of the 40% tax relief on pension contributions is a good move because it does give incentive to put money into a pension but at the same time reduces a persons spending in the economy.

That a refreshing and novel concept for a Labour Government to announce - she sounds like a Tory
That is because Labour realised that to win they needed to become some conservative offshoot and so Starmer only used the name Labour but rebuilt the starmer party behind the labour facade and it worked, what happens when true labour supporters realise they have been duped is another matter even though there was a clue in starmer being a sir !
 
I agree - taxation is a better idea; use the wealth we've got rather than increase debts.

Interesting how the message coming from the right is always that we can't do anything about anything, that things must take their course and if things don't work it has to be somebody's fault, probably immigrants.
The message from the left has precisely the same level of consistency.

It's not fair. We work incredibly hard in horrendous conditions for a pittance and live in unremitting poverty - inadequate food, clothing, housing, heating etc.

It is all the fault of the bloated plutocrats. All problems in society would be solved by taxing the wealth and income of the exploitative few.
 
We tried that. Still on the cards - it's called "austerity". We've had it for 45 years and it has failed utterly, instead wealth has drifted upwards to a massive extent.

I agree. Tax the rich and use existing wealth rather than pie in the sky!

Yes, not high enough taxation at the top. Rates are at a record low.

It's not about "fairness" its about practical necessity. Borrowing money, or relying on future growth, are both unstable and unpredictable. Instead we have to redistribute wealth from the top downwards.
It's weird how so many people chip in in defence of the mega rich hanging on to their ill-gotten gains. Do they expect a reward of some sort, in heaven perhaps? More like never never land!
Were you by any chance a civil servant? I find that the most vociferous of left wingers tend to be those who have had jobs funded by the taxpayer! Just asking for a friend!;)
 
Labour were very careful not to over promise - they wanted to be seen as a party of fiscal responsibility, and chose their words very carefully. It was equally very obvious there was a large gap between aspiration and that which would realistically be afforded.

The ground was being laid for a very, very predictable post election victory scenario.

Claim that things were worse than they ever could have imagined. This has already started- in the last two days - Care Quality Commission, £20bn black hole. The left of the party, largely muzzled during the election campaign, are now being more vocal - child benefit cap as an example.

They had open access to senior officials since January. Their election campaign anticipated a need to rebuild after 14 years of chaos. Asserting that "things were worse than expected" is implausible.

I suspect they will initially avoid raising personal taxes, but less visible taxes will likely increase - possibly related to inheritance tax, VAT thresholds, pension tax reliefs, business taxation etc.

It is less the case Labour won the election than Tories lost.
  • Labour won with only 33% of the vote, the lowest of any election winner ever (I think) to win the largest majority in living memory.
  • Tories lost as tactical voting was based on "anyone but the Tories". Reform, who attracted mostly defecting Tories, split whatever vote still remained after 14 years.
I expect Starmer to remain cautious - he has a sufficiently large majority to largely resist pressures from within to borrow more to spend more.

He will also want to sustain Labour as a party of fiscal responsibility and fair taxation - I have no doubt that winning a second term will be high on his list of priorities, easily undermined by more reckless action now.
 
Reeves is just looking for excuses and someone to blame for her forthcoming tax hikes,


That was the conservatives who put them in power, only 1 in 6 of the uk population if I remember the numbers.

I am not sure if the claimed removal of the 40% tax relief on pension contributions is a good move because it does give incentive to put money into a pension but at the same time reduces a persons spending in the economy.


That is because Labour realised that to win they needed to become some conservative offshoot and so Starmer only used the name Labour but rebuilt the starmer party behind the labour facade and it worked, what happens when true labour supporters realise they have been duped is another matter even though there was a clue in starmer being a sir !
As with Blair, I think the term used is 'Champagne Socialist'.

It wasn't 'true labour voters' who put Starmer into No10 - it was those who would otherwise have voted Labour, but voted Tory last time around because they didn't want a government comprising of the likes of MacDonnell and Corbyn. Starmer put down a marker this week in suspending the whip from seven MPs. If Labour MPs start fighting like rats in a sack' it will collapse like a pack of cards.

I think that as a whole, the electorate aren't keen on far left or far right, but are in the middle ground, where Starmer is.

For the moment, he's made the Labour party electable and is on trust to deliver on his promises during this first term. As Blair found over his lies about the 'dodgy dossier and non-existent WMD, and more recently, the shambolic outgoing government found to its cost, trust is like virginity - when it's gone, it's gone. In which case, there won't be a second term. For me, the Tories lost the last election with the Cummings Barnard Castle 'sight test' and 'Partygate'.

Just my view - others may see things differently, which is fine by me.
 
For me, the Tories lost the last election with the Cummings Barnard Castle 'sight test' and 'Partygate'.
Yes Covid was a major problem for the government and really caught them with there pants down, there had been no preparation for any form of pandemic even though people like Bill gates had raised the potential problems several years earlier but no one took any notice. This left a huge national debt and changed society forever where many people were woken up and fell out of their previous ruts to make changes to their lives which for many included early retirement and others working less hours so another blow to the economy and services. This left people struggling as inflation rose and the cost of living went skyward so whatever government was there would have lost the election, people just thought the other side might perform some miracle and took a chance on the unknown. Partygate probably was what finished Borris off and then the truss saga did untold damage to the party so at this point it was just a case of being on the titanic waiting for the inevitable.
 
All this talk of a "surprise" black hole is rubbish according to the head of the IFS - who is probably the best person to know.

https://news.sky.com/video/incoming...ate-of-public-finances-says-ifs-boss-13185553

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...0bn-black-hole-in-public-finances/ar-BB1qEHJG

Asked by BBC Radio 4’s Today programme this morning whether the black hole is a surprise, IFS director Paul Johnson said: “I don’t think that is really credible at all. There should not be a sense of surprise there is a big issue here.”

So three weeks in and the lies have started. Not even Boris was that fast
 
........ So much so that the locals chose to erect a statue to his memory.
The better off locals and various other interested parties who could turn a blind eye to slavery
.......
What is needed is for people to be presented with the unvarnished facts, good and bad so they can then weight them up and form an opinion.
In other words education rather than indoctrination.
Absolutely agree
..... we were also in many cases the first people to recognise the error of our ways, and often led the world in abolishing these practices, slavery being a very obvious example.
"We" may well have been, but it was fiercely resisted
Your observation about slave owners being compensated is a classic example of the sort of disingenuous nonsense that is often a feature of your posts.
Unfortunately is true. Find out for yourself. Did you know that their descendants were still profiting from slavery up to 2015?
....
I am quite sure many at the time found the idea of compensating slave owners extremely distasteful, but it was a necessary evil in order to accomplish the end of this vile practice.
At least you agree that it was evil!

Some long posts, apologies for not replying sooner!
The point in general is that slavery is still the big issue, but with variations.
Basic slavery is making people work for nothing, with no freedom at all.
Lesser slavery is making people work for as little as possible, but with the freedom to like it or lump it.
Then there is employing as few as possible, which doesn't produce slaves as such, but just a few low paid and a lot with no means of livelihood.
Classic example being the highland clearances and enclosures where agricultural improvements and more profitable products (sheep farming) made most the working population redundant and they were evicted ("turfed off" which meant turf roofs removed so that return was impossible) or rights to common land grazing ended.
It meant that they were then available as de facto slaves in the form of "indentured servitude" and induced to accept work from the colonies with dodgy contracts etc. Or if lucky they would get low paid jobs in the newly developing mills and other industries.
The Irish were forced into the same situation by the potato famine and an estimated million were forced to emigrate and another million died of starvation. Ireland lost a quarter of its population in less than 10 years. This happened in spite of the fact that landowners (mostly English) could easily have provided famine relief but this was also hampered by the corn laws, which kept prices and profits high but also starved people throughout GB itself.
Then came the industrial revolution and it was found profitable to employ the least skilled and lowest paid (women and children) to manage machines or dig coal etc. and power was largely in the hands of the wealth owning industrialists and not the workers.
But the industrial revolution is still in progress across the whole economy , it never stopped - AI just being one particular topical detail.
Hence the agitation from "the working class" from the Peasants Revolt, the Chartists, the Levellers, Suffragettes, Luddites, and many others, through to modern trade unions.
The same battles still being fought. History repeating itself but never in quite the same way.
PS apparently the indigenous population of Ireland is still below the pre famine level i.e. not yet recovered.
We tend to only know about the more famous examples like the Cadbury's. There are many others.
Rowntrees too. Another chocolate mega-rich entrepreneur.
They finance the John Rowntree Foundation:
https://www.jrf.org.uk/background-and-history
https://www.jrf.org.uk/uk-poverty-2024-the-essential-guide-to-understanding-poverty-in-the-uk
"More than 1 in 5 people in the UK (22%) were in poverty in 2021/22 – 14.4 million people. This included: 8.1 million (or around 2 in 10) working-age adults. 4.2 million (or nearly 3 in 10) children."
 
Last edited:
You really can't stop yourself can you Jacob. I was perfectly well aware that slave owners were compensated. My point was that this was out of political necessity in order to get the legislation passed, a point of which I am quite sure you are aware, but chose to ignore. Best estimates are that some 800,000 slaves were freed as a result. Would you rather they had remain enslaved while a practical solution was found that didn't involve compensation?
Your view that everything good originates exclusively from the left doesn't really hold up particularly well.
You mention the suffragette movement.
Are you aware that Pankhurst, despite her friendship with Keir Hardie, was actually refused entry to the fledgling labour party because she was a woman?
She later joined the conservatives.
And whilst a Labour government were the first to give women the vote, they restricted it to only those over 30. The voting age for men being 21. The reason was to prevent women voters outnumbering men owing to the losses in the first world war. Practical or misogynistic?
It was actually a conservative government that first gave equal votes to women.
And your favourites, the Luddites. People essentially opposed to mechanisation costing workers their jobs.
Tell me Jacob, as a self proclaimed "new luddite" do you make use of tools, a car and so forth made by exactly the processes the Luddites sought to stop?
Do you eat food planted and harvested by machinery, that historically vastly reduced the numbers of agricultural workers, rather than by hand, or with the assistance of a horse?
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what a "new luddite" actually is, because it appears to me that, unless you live like the Amish, then you are at risk of appearing a hypocrite.
Or is it just a catchy leftie sounding piece of nonsense.
 
The unions were just fighting for their jobs, which was exactly what they are supposed to do, especially in the face of unimaginative poor management.
Unions do not fight for their jobs, those that work in unions have jobs and get paid whilst their members are on strike and don't get paid, misunderstanding of union principles, strike to force management to raise pay until they bleed all the profit out of the company.

I was worked on building Littlebrook D, Red Robbo and Wooly Hat both Union convenors were on that site, they called out their members due to the state of the toilet block on the tank farm some two miles away, two labourers where employed to do nothing else, but clean the toilets, they where given their cards for not working, immediate strike until they where re-instated, during that time the toilet block was completely re-built, the workforce did not come back to work as the local company that carried out the work where not Union members and the union insisted on re-instatement of the two labourers who where not able to effectively work as labourers, so the gang they where appointed to had to carry this dead weight, the gangs bonus payments went down accordingly, the whole thing was a farce to force an increase in the basic rate on the site which was the agenda from the start.
 
Unions do not fight for their jobs, ....
oh yes they do, and for all manner of civil rights. They have always been and still are a major force in the Labour movement, for the benefit of society as a whole.
This is why the right wing media are so keen on convincing you that they are the work of Satan! You shouldn't believe everything/anything you read in the Mail or Telegraph.
 
Last edited:
I have always found it rather amusing that Jacob should use an image of a Knight Templar as his avatar.
The organisation as a whole were arguably the world's earliest bankers in the modern sense, and became fabulously wealthy on the back of the crusades. The archetypal capitalists.
The military wing were amongst the most brutal involved in the crusades.
They took large tracts of land in Palestine, and were granted more by the pope. They butchered large numbers of the Muslim population in these areas, allegedly for the security of Christian pilgrims.
Exactly the sort of thing we now criticise Israel for, none more so than Jacob himself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top