Kitchen Cabinets

[LyNx]

At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.

Wind the foot into the leg, then cut off the amount you don't need. I did this on mine as i only want 65mm high plinths. Easy with a hacksaw :wink:

 

[engineer one]

strangely scrit i agree with you it is just the whole concept of flattening one cabinet against another. both you and i know how difficult it is to guarantee
getting 2440 worth of units flat and square individually at say 600,300 etc.

personally i think it would be better to design a kitchen so that water overflows are captured in a more sensible and safe way, you know washing machine water capture things etc,

however i do understand the removal of blown cabs etc, so i guess it is just a pipe dream, also an economic one. :lol: :lol: :roll:

do you have a spare t shirt :twisted: :twisted:

paul :wink:

whose final word to bb is again make the drawers and doors special to make your kitchen stand out, cause whatever you do the next house owners will rip it out, so why waste all that time and effort on the worktop.?? :roll: :? and as has been said elsewhere remember even a 1000 length of worktop is b****y heavy for you and the wife to move.

 

[ByronBlack]

Paul - thanks for the tips. We have decided to go with a cheaper worktop and will fit decent drawers. We only have one unit that has drawers so these will have good blum fittings. The doors - these are coming with the cabinets as part of the wickes' deal so i'll be using those. I'm going up there tonight to check them out and see what they are like, the look nice enough but need to check out the fittings etc - I could always retro-fit some soft closers and some decent handles to these.

I have a couple of other questions regarding appliances. How do they fit into cabinets? I'm assuming the cab has no base and just slips over the appliance on the top and two sides? Also, are appliances ususally the right depth to fit into a cab/under a worktop and how are the kickplates/plinths catered for?

 

[Scrit]

I have a couple of other questions regarding appliances. How do they fit into cabinets? I'm assuming the cab has no base and just slips over the appliance on the top and two sides? Also, are appliances usually the right depth to fit into a cab/under a worktop and how are the kickplates/plinths catered for?

How they fit depends on what they are. Most washers, dryers and dish washers just slot into a 450mm, 500mm or 600mm gap between cabs and have the door hung on special hinges or fittings. This means you'll need a 35mm hinge boring bit either for the router (Wealden Tools) or in a drill press - don't try using one by hand. The normal approach is to pack-up and jack-up the appliance up so that its top rests against the underside of the worktop - I normally use the cut-outs/offcuts from the worktop to do this. Many such appliances can be screwed into the cabs on either side or into the (underside of) worktop to stop them "walking" in the event of vibration. Check the heights of these appliances as they'll generally specify something like minimum height underworktop of 830 to 850mm. If installing anything which can generate steam when the door is opened (e.g. washing machine or dishwasher with drop-down door) the underside edge of the worktop should be protected by applying a strip of self-adhesive ally foil, like gas fitters use (try Screwfix). This will prevent the steam from delaminating the worktop at the edge of the post-forming. Most insert appliances require 550 to 570mm depth of carcass, so your services (electric, water, waste outfall) should be positioned behind an adjacent cabinet - there's no space for them directly behind the appliance itself. Plinths are normally just run across the front and clipped to the legs of cabs on either side. Drop door appliances will need a cut-out to be put in the top of the plinth, but the details will be in the instructions.

The other type of appliances sit inside a special appliance cabinet which is supplied sans back. These include built-in ovens, built-in fridges and built-in freezers. They are almost always 564mm wide (to fit inside a 600mm cab with 18mm walls) and the appliance is normally screwed to the front edges of the cab, although one or two firms like Hotpoint do built-in ovens which require a 600mm gap between adjacent cabinets and where you install a pair of angle plates attached to the cabs on either side then slide the oven in. They can be a royal pain to deal with.

The last (related) thing to note is that drop-down ovebs shoul ideally have aluminium heat deflector shields applied around them. These small strips of metal will deflect the blast of hot air from the oven when the door is dropped and improve the working life of the adjacent cabinet doors and the worktop above. They are essential in kitchens with vinyl- or foil-wrapped doors. And talking about heat have you sorted out how you are going to position cabs above/around the hob?

It all boils down to the fact that you need to know what appliances you're going to have before you order your cabs.....

...it is just the whole concept of flattening one cabinet against another.

The job requires two spirit levels, a 1m builders level and a smaller torpedo level and is actually quite quick once you get the knack.

...personally I think it would be better to design a kitchen so that water overflows are captured in a more sensible and safe way, you know washing machine water capture things etc,

In the USA they have overflow drainer trays just like that, I think because they have a lot of wooden houses, and I wish we had them here. But we don't so I'll stick with what we have and work accordingly.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit, thats superb! Thanks for the explanations. Luckily i'll be re-using the appliances that we already have so it should be fairly straight forward to cross-reference your post and work out a solution.

The only other thing that is causing me a few problems (mentally) at the moment is the waste to the washing machine and dishwasher. Currently these are situatied near the sink but I want to move them about 10ft across the kitchen to the back wall - how difficult is it to move the waste pipe (I might have to run it outside the house and back in) and what is the minimum angle needed to carry the waste out?

Sorry for all the questions, it's the first time i've looked into a kitchen project.

 

[engineer one]

byron. be careful with moving waste pipes.

generally people instal their dishwasher and washing machine around the sink cause it's easier to settle all the simple things, and you can of course get connections that go into the u bend to allow the waste to flow pretty easily.

in the old days, and considering how long these machines live, many of us have the same problem, the idea was to dump the water in a long upright pipe to ensure that when it was ejected from the machine it did not overwhelm the u bend and push water back into the sink. remember that the water flow is not constant, but girt great lumps every so often so there is quite a lot of air pressure to overcome.

but look at it a different way. where are the external waste pipes, how near the back wall. talk to a PROPER plumber, or the local council/water company, and see if you can plumb into that. i would not suggest going out and back. try to get a completely new connection outside, not sure that you can tap into the roof down pipes, but maybe another down pipe is closer.

scrit i surrender, of course you are right we have to work with what is here, just after all this time we could hope for more thought from the manufacturers about the biggest problem with all machines which use water in such large quantities. :? :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[j]

BB
10ft does sound like a very long way, you'd be hard pushed to get much of a slope on that, unless you're fitting the machines ontop of the work surface (I have seen this done with a dishwasher, but not a washing machine)

I'm not sure how much slope you actually need, as the waste of these machines should be pumped out, you just don't want debris to settle in this long length. Soap scum can build up to be quite solid.

As to the actual fitting of waste pipe, it's relatively simple. I used screw type fittings when I plumbed in a washing machine last. Just push fit and tighten the colar.

 

[lurker]

Byron,

Just a quick question
You say Wickes carcases are MDF - can you confirm?
I thought everyone used chipboard

Reason I ask is that I want to build a nice set of drawers to our fitted kitchen (built by me 15 years ago with Magnet stuff). And want a decent standard carcase to do it with.

By the way - you agonising over tops.
This might be old fashioned now, but back then, I built a big island top (8' x8') from 18mm marine ply and covered it with very good quality floor tiles ( not Barns crap) plus a wooden fluted edge. Still gets many compliments and after 15 years hard work looks just as good. One tile got cracked and it took a bit of getting out, but you cant see the repair.

 

[ByronBlack]

I've given a couple of plumbers a call and some of said don't do it, others have said you can but it will be expensive etc etc.. so maybe I need to revise that idea ;-)

Lurker - i'm not sure I did say that wickes cabs were MDF? They are MFC like most others. I think you might be getting mixed up when I said I needed to make some replica doors for custom sized cabinets and I was going to use MDF to match the design of the wickes' cabinet doors..

I'm going to see the kitchen tonight so i'll report back on the material and build quality.

Nice idea about the worktops. My mum's place has tiles on all the worksurfaces - it's stood up well but the grout issue puts me off a bit, not really the most hygenic.

 

[engineer one]

broken tiles :?

great place to consider the option of buying one of the fein multi tools :twisted: :twisted: (sorry for the plug, but it is a great tool ain't it roger?)

then you have found a tool that really does so much more :roll: :roll:

interesting thought, the latest axminster flyer re-introduces the roto zip.
no cheaper than last time when it failed to save the uk importer, are they sure???? :? don't think we build enough dry walled houses over here.

paul :wink:

 

[ByronBlack]

Paul your not so subtle shove down the slope has failed i'm afraid! I've looked at the fein and decided it would be a waste of money espeically as I have my eye on some festool-candy

In all seriousness. Money is the biggest contributing factor with the kitchen hence the requirement to go with wickes 50% discounted 'take away' kitchen. So considering all the fantastic (as usual) information, i'm going to go for a cheapish laminate wood effect worktop, keep the appliances where they are now and build it in three stages so as not to upset the home-life balance wiht regards to cooking and washing.

I'll post some pics of the project as I get through it. I first need to get up a floor that is made from outdoor concrete tiles and cemented down!

 

[lurker]

Byron,

A little tip you might consider when making your off the peg kitchen a bit special.

Most people set the bench top depth to the depth of bought tops (depth of carcase plus a little bit.

I mounted my tops to the walls (carcases do not fully support top and can be pulled out indivudually).

I also left a gap about 40mm between wall & back of the top.
Fitted a contrasting length of wood (actually reclaimed "mahogany" windowsill) over the rear edge and this gap - looks like a very large internal corner bead. Not sure if I've explained that very well.

Looks different - bit more space behind cupboards to run wall services - stops damp settling between the wall and edge of the top - protects the corner at the back of the top - saves matching the dead straight top to the inevitable wonky wall.

 

[Scrit]

The only other thing that is causing me a few problems (mentally) at the moment is the waste to the washing machine and dishwasher. Currently these are situated near the sink but I want to move them about 10ft across the kitchen to the back wall - how difficult is it to move the waste pipe (I might have to run it outside the house and back in) and what is the minimum angle needed to carry the waste out?

I agree with others that you are probably getting near the limit. The issue isn't so much the drop required to handle the solids, it's the height of the stand pipe above the P-trap in the waste outfall you'll need to ensure that the dishwasher and washing machine don't back up overflow the pipe and so flood the kitchen. Some machines can pump out at a heck of a rate and will need a good 450 to 500mm of stand pipe height - that doesn't leave you with a lot of drop to play with when you take the P-trap and curvature of the flexi waste pipe from the appliance into account. That's one of the reasons it is normal to install waste water water producers near to the sink. The other is pure ergonomics. Consider the working triangle of sink - fridge - cooker which needs to be no more than 10ft (3m) on each side for a good working kitchen; I reckon the same is true if dish washing and/or laundry facilities are incorporated. You really need the dishwasher right next to the sink so that you can rinse off the muckiest stuff before loading it into the machine. Similarly for laundry you don't want the washer too far away from the sink so that heavy, waterlogged, pre-soaked or scrubbed items don't have to be dragged all around the kitchen, dripping all the while before you load them into the washing machine. If you keep the washers near to the sink then it should be possible to plumb-in the wastes through something like a 1-1/2 or two bowl kit with single or even dual waste spigots (although in all probability your sink will come with provision for at least one such connection):

All you need to add another is a tee-piece and a waste spigot adaptor. These are, on the whole, much less likely to flood that the traditional open P-trap affair:

(Screwfix #18640)

There's also the issue of the building regs on this if you go outside the house, Byron. My understanding is that if you go outside then you either have to discharge into an outside grate or you need to discharge into a main waste down-pipe. You may not re-enter the house with waste water. Although I'm more than happy if someone who knows the regs better wants to correct that statement. Similarly if you have to break into an existing underground drain then that requires Building Control to get involved, doesn't it?

Sorry for all the questions, it's the first time i've looked into a kitchen project.

You don't say? :wink:

BTW if you haven't got one already, consider getting yourself a PVC pipe cutter for handling the 40mm PVCu wastes:

£5.35 or so from places like Tool Station and money well spent, IMHO

So, finally, have you decided on whether or not you are going push-fit, solvent fit or compression fit for the wastes (which I assume will be 40mm) and on your water pipe work are you using compression fit or a solder jointed fit like Yorkshire fittings or end feeds? Whichever it is your design needs to allow access to the mains water stopcock (if it is inside the kitchen, many are) and you do need to incorporate water isolators for all water consuming appliances as well as the hot and cold water to the sink (that's a Water Council directive, apparently)

....I'm going to go for a cheapish laminate wood effect worktop.....

Do yourself a favour, Byron. If you can get a Duropal (Pfleiderer) or Prima (Formica) 38/40mm worktop at a reasonable price then go that way. The better quality worktops are generally a lot easier to joint well as they tend to have less of an across the width dip in them. When they are delivered put them in the garage or get them in the house right away as leaving them outside in warm weather like today or on days when the RH of the air is high will simply create a lot of problems for you when you do install.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit, I have to say - loads of excellent detail. Just a shame it's wasted on me (no pun intended) I understoond maybe about 5% of that at the most Which leads me to think i'll just leave the appliances well alone

Appreciate the tip on the worktops, i'll see what wickes have got - chances are the tops will be fitted on the day of arrival (since we are doing it in stages).

I can see now why kitchen fitters are hard to get a hold of (down here) and expensive

 

[engineer one]

byron, actually the shove down the slope was not totally aimed at you :twisted: it was in regard to the comment about removing broken or chipped tiles inside an already tiled area. have to say the fein makes a really good job of getting the tile out without chipping those surrounding.
it is also brilliant for removing the nails behind skirting, and cutting breathing holes in same, and as for sanding well i could go on, but enough of the plugs, it is just a great bit of kit to me :lol: :lol:

scrit how about that you have shown the picture of a tool i got given ages ago, and still have never figured out how to use it.
what do the bits inside the handle do?? and how do you open and use it?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

....how about that you have shown the picture of a tool I got given ages ago, and still have never figured out how to use it.
What do the bits inside the handle do?? and how do you open and use it?

Well, I'll admit to having a slightly different one. The one I showed was about as cheap as they get. I have this orange one (£11.60 + the dreaded):

Somewhere at the top or side of that pipe cutter there will be a little botton to release the jaws. Stick the open jaws around a pipe, make sure that the ratchet device isnide the handles meshes up then start squeezing. The closing action is a ratchet action and at the end of the cut you'll need to open the jaws to remove the pipe. Beats the you know what out of attacking pipes with a saw because the ends are clean cut and (with care) actually square. So what do you get for the extra dosh? Ally body, body holds the pipe a bit better and a slightly better ratchet action. End of Advert :lol:

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

well scrit thanks but i'm b*****ed if i can find a button which is what i would expect. basically, you seem to have three pivot points which can be seen in the photo you provide of the rollston, but nothing seems to move or slide, or do anything which makes a normal(ok me :lol: man) think that it would do.

ihave even tried to access the rollston web site and find the instructions and could not. anyone got any info that would make this a useful piece of equipment, ???? :?

paul :wink:

 

[misterfish]

I've got a similar looking cutter that I've used quite a bit for 15 and 22mm pipe as well as larger waste. If I remember rightly you open the handles as wide as they go (can be a bit stiff at the end) and the cutting blade will open. Then just put pipe into jaw and squeeze handles together, each squeeze moves the ratchet along one notch and gradually closes the jaws and cuts cleanly through the pipe.

If you want I could do some photos.

MisterFish

 

[engineer one]

well how about that misterfish, that is the answer. i have only had the damn thing for about a year, and thought what a waste???


now however it makes sense, my only excuse can be that it came with no packaging or instructions :?

thanks

paul :wink:

 

[Trumpet]

I've been a lurker here for a few weeks ByronBlack has steered me towards the Triton (MOF variant - many thanks, I think I'm going to much prefer the plunge action and wouldn't have made the effort to go and try one out) but I'm with engineer one on the Fein.

I purchased the Triton and Fein a couple a weeks ago, thus far I have used the Fein for grinding out rust from around the van's screen before spraying, cuttting the mortice bolt of a locked door - expensive but quick fix - I will find a way of making a cutting blade fixture, quickly relieving a vinyl floor of mastic sealed edge and removing deeply-recessed glass panes from a window frame fixed with old, very hard putty. The Triton thus far is still pristine. :wink:

Engineer one - was also looking at the Rotozip but like the look of the mini Bosch router - sold as the Colt in the US.