Kitchen Cabinets

[George_N]

Oh, and finally. I was thinking of using an adjustable finger-joint router bit to help add strength to the edge-to-edge join, is that a good idea or unnessacary?

Biscuits would make aligning the pieces easy. The commercial stuff I've seen uses finger type glue joints for end grain to end grain joints.

 

[DomValente]

Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?

And finally, what should be my process of making these from getting the wood from the supplier as rough boards?

My initial thoughts were:

- Cut to just over length
- Rip into 100mm strips
- Run through jointer on 2 edges
- Leave in stick for a week or so
- Thickness to just over final thickness
- Glue up into final width panels
- Smooth to final thickness
- Apply Finish.

On the third step I run one side only on the planer and parallel the second side on the table saw just taking a mm of otherwise you don't know if you're planning parallel.

Dom

 

[spadge]

Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?

And finally, what should be my process of making these from getting the wood from the supplier as rough boards?

My initial thoughts were:

- Cut to just over length
- Rip into 100mm strips
- Run through jointer on 2 edges
- Leave in stick for a week or so
- Thickness to just over final thickness
- Glue up into final width panels
- Smooth to final thickness
- Apply Finish.

On the third step I run one side only on the planer and parallel the second side on the table saw just taking a mm of otherwise you don't know if you're planning parallel.

Dom

On the third step I would run one edge on the surfacer then (as its only 100mm wide) run it through the thicknesser to get the second edge square and parallel.

More than one way to skin a cat.

Grahame

 

[OJ]

Agree with the guys above, joint one edge only and then rip to paralllel to finish. Then pass sawn edge over jointer. If there is cupping, then sorting this comes first. Machine with points of cup on the table rather than the centre on the table. Then hold flat edge tight against fence to square first edge etc etc. If you are biscuiting, then ask yourself if you need the stock all the same thickness, just joint from the top down. Old lab bench type worktops are not always uniform thickness, just flat and square. This may save yourself an operation as you might want your top to float a little over the carcasses. This way you could pack as required to account for top thicknesses and floor irregularities. You may also like a shadow gap rather than a tight fit along the front.
OJ

 

[DomValente]

More than one way to skin a cat.

Grahame[/quote]

Always

 

[Scrums]

Iroko ....... I personally would run a mile, several actually.

There's only one way to find out if you're allergic to the stuff - unfortunately that's to use it !

A bad reaction is open weepy sores on the 'creases' in your hands, between your fingers and swollen weepy eyes, constant sneezing and sniffles. It really is not nice stuff if you find it doesn't like you.

How's about Beech or maybe Oak?....a bit more, but in the case of Oak and an abundance of 'character' Oak - not too much more.

Chris.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Oh, and finally. I was thinking of using an adjustable finger-joint router bit to help add strength to the edge-to-edge join, is that a good idea or unnessacary?

I've never used one of those cutters but on commercially-made stuff that I've seen or bought where those cutters have been used, the joints have been very poor and have sometimes failed. Maybe they were just made badly :? In my view, if you want to use something, biscuits or a plywood loose tongue are the best.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[engineer one]

bb, i tend to look at things differently from most here, because in the last couple of years i have been involved in the design from a users point of view, not as someone making my living from it.

as for the base units, i would tend to go with pre made ones. because of the time constraints, and the jigging needed to do it yourself for only one kitchen. i am pretty sure that b&q still do two thicknesses of mdf cases,
15 and 18. always go for the 18, it ain't that much more, but will last tons longer. add extra rear x members to strengthen. as scrit says 18 mm behind the slide in, top and bottom, will make a major difference to the strength.

again, personally make every thing in the base units on shelves it is a pita to bend down to search for things. either behind doors, or separate drawer front. if you like the busy look.

as for the top what effect do you want??? have you checked the costs of using even rough wood that you process against worktops that you buy?
it makes for scary reading, and also time factor again. if you work the design properly, you can use offies of work top if you stick to a standard colour.

otherwise go for re-cycled wood, and join that together at least it will be more stable,or you could always make your own butchers block out of short end grain, but you need to support it on a base.

personally i would only go for granite or marble in a very restricted part of the kitchen it to is a pita to keep clean and secure, and can stain like a b.
then you have to use acidic things like hydrogen chloride to clean up, not good.

hope that also helps
:?
paul :wink:

 

[ByronBlack]

Guy's - thats a lot of good info/tips.

I'll have to do the second parallel operation on the thicknesser as I don't own a tablesaw. (Unless I can convince SMWBO I really need the festool CMS).

SWMBO is quite taken with the Iroko look so I don't have much choice, unless I use something like beech and stain it - not sure how possible that is - anyone done that?

I'm definitly going to go for the discounted wickes cabs and strengthen with solid 18mm backs.

Paul - I did check the cost of already made Iroko tops and apart from the time factor it works out about half the price if I make them myself. However, there is an added cost involved for me to process these as i'll need to purchase a decent dust extractor and a biscuit jointer and a bunch of clamps.

I've discounted cheaper laminate worktops and granite - we are sold on solid wood. The majority of the kitchen is quite cheap stuff so we want a good set of worktops to 'up' the overall quality.

If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?

 

[engineer one]

bb no problems., thought for the day though have you checked the food safety with iroko???? any toxins etc that might transfer to foods???
personally i don't know, but would think it worth checking before you buy.

as for end to end join, i would think actually that a loose tenon would be even better, just run the biscuit jointer straight across and then insert a piece of ply. this should ensure no "shadow lines"

as for upping the quality have to say that after about a year most worktops look like cr*p and are untidy, so you won't notice. better to improve the handles and doors.
:roll:
paul :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?

Byron, I'm now a bit confused as to how you are proposing to make these worktops :? Originally I thought you were going to prepare the wood to the length of the tops and join them together. However, as you are now talking about end-to-end grain joints within the worktop, I assume you are proposing to use shorter pieces with staggered joints. If so, you will need to cramp them in their length as well as their width as you go along. From your original post, it sounds as though at least one of the worktops is 9ft long. I reckon this could all get a bit unwieldly and could cause you a lot of problems. If I were in your position, I think I would save myself a lot of work and potential problems and buy the tops already made up.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Scrit]

Whats the best way to finish the worktop? I was thinking of numerous coats of danish oil, but is there a better more robust option?

You have chosen an oily wood for your worktop - a timber which can give problems in finishing. A worktop is a working item and not just for show and therefore needs to be something with a repairable finish. To my mind that makes oils of some description the only sensible finish.

.........Leave in stick for a week or so

But where? In the shed, or in the environment it will be living in subsequently? If there is any major variation in RH between the two you'll potentially have problems down the line

SWMBO is quite taken with the Iroko look so I don't have much choice, unless I use something like beech and stain it - not sure how possible that is - anyone done that?

I don't think it would turn out all that consistent - and you're not going to save a lot doing it, either. I've seen it done with oak and it didn't look right to me. I'd also be concerned with any potential problems down the line if the finish ever needed to be repaired.

I did check the cost of already made Iroko tops and apart from the time factor it works out about half the price if I make them myself. However, there is an added cost involved for me to process these as i'll need to purchase a decent dust extractor and a biscuit jointer and a bunch of clamps.

Just how do you intend to get a consistent thickness over a 9ft x 24in run, though, without access to a 24in wide thicknesser (what the factories use)? My experience (with the one and only worktop I ever tried to fabricate) is that you'll get variations in the thickness across it's length and width so you need to be prepared for quite a bit of hand planing, i.e. jack plane then smoother not just a couple of passes with a smoother. And iroko isn't pleasant stuff to plane, IMHO. Apart from the peppery dust it can be ruddy hard work without a power planer. Have you considered that you're also going to need a 9ft long solid bench to cramp up this lot? There will be a tendency for the worktop to bow slightly along it's length if you attempt the glue-up on trestles.

If I don't finger-joint the end-to-end grain joints, how else can this be done to get a nice strong and tight join within the worktop?

Butt joint with a loose spline across the joint. After all finger joints are a modern manufacturing solution and I for one find it slightly farcical that folk want to emulate what was introduced as a continuous production technique meant to allow the use of short offcuts..... As Paul says if you end to end joint you'll need to ensure that yoeu can end to end cramp - so add some cramp heads and bars to yout list.

In any case if you look at the best quality manufactured worktops you'll find they generally use wide staves which run the full length of the worktop without any end to end joints. I'd say the solution is to buy 10ft iroko and use 4in to 6in wide staves.....

One last point, Byron, do you have a helper (or helpers) to work with you on this and in particular to help ytou install it? A 9ft iroko worktop is a very heavy item indeed, so you won't be carrying it on your own.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

OK then! All superb points from you as usual scrit, and the two pauls.. after speaking with SWMBO and working it out from a cost and time perspective we have ditched the idea of the Iroko tops and will instead search out some cheaper wood alternatives or if worse comes to worse a wood 'effect' to put in situ until we can afford a better option.

I think with my limited skills and workshop it's going to be hard making 3 2.8m worktops to an acceptable standard. Maybe in the future though, but I dont think on reflection i'm upto that particular job.

Thanks for pointing out the practicalities - you fella's always do a sterling job of giving me a clarity of thought.

We'll be doing the kitchen in three stages, so we won't be without an oven or sink for more than a day, so it should be relatively stress free!

Thanks Chaps!

 

[billybuntus]

has anybody tried

http://www.diy-kitchens.com/acatalog/Index_Home.html ?

 

[ByronBlack]

Thanks for the link billy - their prices are still more expensive than the cabs from wickes, and their site gives me motion sickness with all the moving tat on the frontpage!

 

[engineer one]

you're right bb, they certainly are involved in the great. let's blind em with pikkies viewpoint.

for me, web sites should be legible and easy to understand in the body, with the clever stuff on the periphery or accessible by choice, not "in yer face" :lol:

interesting that wickes are cheaper.

i still wonder though why in the uk we make cabinets that do not need seperate plinths. i am always convinced that it is easier to level over a long distance than each unit. :?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I still wonder though why in the uk we make cabinets that do not need seperate plinths. I am always convinced that it is easier to level over a long distance than each unit. :?

From an installer's point of view it is probably much faster to install separate cabs on adjuster feet than to build a fixed plinth on site, especially where you have gaps in the cab runs to accommodate built-under washing machines, etc. I can't say I know of many fitters who'd willingly carry a folding table saw in the van..... (says the man who lugs a flip-over saw round with him, "just in case" :roll: ).

There are, however, another couple of practical reasons for our way of doing things; if an MFC plinth facia clipped to plastic legs gets soaked and blows it is cheap, quick and simple to replace, unlike replacing a blown fixed plinth but more to the point, have you ever had to clean-up a kitchen after a flood? Our way of doing things means that you pull the plinth off, use a wet and dry vac to pick-up the majority of the water then wipe down and leave to dry. Try that with a fixed plinth :evil: The fact that the plinth front is removeable also allows access to flexible feeds (washers, dish washers, etc), levelling feet, and so forth which can make life easier when trying to level-up, install or remove a built-in washer with a door on the front for example. Also if you ever need to jack down a single blown carcass (such as that beneath a sink) or pull-out a single carcass from a run of cabs to do a plumbing repair to pipwrk behind the cabs the wind-up feet are a godsend - providing you haven't got too clever with how you join the cabs together in the first place .

Now where's that T-shirt?

Scrit

 

[Shultzy]

What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.

 

[Paul Chapman]

What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.

You can get them in three different heights here

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Scrit]

What puts me off cabinet adjusters is their hight. At a minimum of 135mm I would lose 60mm of cupboard space as my existing plinth is only 75mm high.

It is possible to get 100mm high adjuter feet, but the reason they are the height they are (nominally 150mm) is because standard cabs (and therefore off the shelf doors) are 720mm high and most washing machines need 850mm or so to go under a worktop, hence the "standard" height of 870mm or so to the tops of the cabs (150 + 720 = 870). It is also possible to saw up to 50mm off many adjuster feet using a very fine tooth sawblade (or better yet a Nobex saw) because the screw foot adjuster is at the bottom end of the leg and the top end isa just pushed into a simple hole in the mounting bracket.

Scrit