Kell III, perhaps the ultimate honing guide...

[Jake]

The "wheel on the bench" type are almost the exact opposite. All your abrasives must be the same thickness (or are least be shimmed or inset to be the same effective thickness).

Yet another advantage of the Kell, which will add a hyper-micro-bevel automatically with finer PSA abrasives (which must be a few microns thinner than the lower grits, assuming identical backing and a single layer of grit). [/snake oil]

 

[Imperial]

Never felt the need to add micro bevels to any edge never mind "hyper micro bevels" what ever the #:*% they are? My blades are all honed by hand on a couple of waterstones and have sucessfully cut through the leather tool rolls I keep them in as well as my jeans and a bag they were being carried in on more than one occasion as well as wood of course. Jigs I find are only useful when grinding a new angle, if you happen to chip the edge. I own the Veritas and only ever use it for that purpose. This kind of talk is what puts off novices from trying to sharpen freehand themselves and they fork out cash for devices which are really not required, not very good and made some of the pro's start another forum elsewhere. When a tool is blunt you'll soon see the effect and know it time to hone.

All of the above IMO!

 

[woodbloke]

Never felt the need to add micro bevels to any edge never mind "hyper micro bevels" what ever the #:*% they are? My blades are all honed by hand on a couple of waterstones and have sucessfully cut through the leather tool rolls I keep them in as well as my jeans and a bag they were being carried in on more than one occasion as well as wood of course. Jigs I find are only useful when grinding a new angle, if you happen to chip the edge. I own the Veritas and only ever use it for that purpose. This kind of talk is what puts off novices from trying to sharpen freehand themselves and they fork out cash for devices which are really not required, not very good and made some of the pro's start another forum elsewhere. When a tool is blunt you'll soon see the effect and know it time to hone.

All of the above IMO!

Don't get me wrong...I can freehand hone and as an ex-woodwork teacher of the old school could grind and hone a class set of bench chisels...that's 80 :shock: :shock: in about an hour. The thing with freehand honing is that you can never fully guarantee the bevel that you're trying to achieve and more often that not is far higher than you anticipated. This isn't too much of a problem with carbon steel as metal removal is fairly swift...it becomes more of a problem with A2 steels which are much tougher and the tendency is then to round the bevel and then you think it's sharp, when it ain't really. As has been said many times, a honing guide will provide a guaranteed angle every time which is it's inherent beauty. The KIII just does it better, but you really do need to get your head round how it does it and more importantly, see it working. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this system to a novice woodworker.
All in my opinion of course..... - Rob

 

[wizer]

I think Jake was being facetious there Wouldn't that scenario actually round the front of the blade over?

 

[woodbloke]

I think Jake was being facetious there Wouldn't that scenario actually round the front of the blade over?

Tom, we know Jake was being facetious :lol:...snake oil might be a good alternative to Camilla though (need to speak to Mattew) - Rob

 

[Imperial]

Hardy har har, my sides have now split at the marvelous wit :lol:

 

[woodbloke]

Hardy har har, my sides have now split at the marvelous wit :lol:

Sarcasm is noted - Rob

 

[Smeg]

I agree with bloonose, blades are for using not polishing, measuring in microns, micro beveling or super duper micro micron beveling

When do you people find time to do any work?

And of course this is just my opinion

 

[woodbloke]

I agree with bloonose, blades are for using not polishing, measuring in microns, micro beveling or super duper micro micron beveling

When do you people find time to do any work?

And of course this is just my opinion

The super duper micro-micron bevel is one of Jakes fabrications :lol: :lol: caused by the inexpert application of an excess drop or two of Snake Oil. What's under discussion here is applying just two bevels to A2 steel. The main primary bevel ground at 23deg, is achieved on the Tormek. The honed bevel at 30deg is the first one honed, a secondary micro bevel at 32deg (which is so small that you can't really see it) is then added, really just two or three passes on the 1um paper.
The reason is fairly straightforward in that A2 steel benefits from a higher honing angle than a standard 01 carbon steel blade. I know this because when I honed the A2 blade on my LN block at 30deg, it completely crumbled and left the underside of the plane looking like a ploughed field (an exaggeration :roll: but there are multiple score lines in the sole caused by the disintegrating edge)
If you happen to use 01 carbon steel (nothing wrong with that at all) then there isn't really any need to go to 32deg, stay with 30deg, which makes the process a bit easier - Rob

 

[Philly]

Not wanting to go too far off-topic, but its pretty easy to hone free-hand. The secret is to feel for the wire edge - that tells you you're sharpening where it counts, at the cutting edge.
It seems to be really easy to spend more money on sharpening gear and jigs than on tools :lol:
Just a thought.... I'll get me coat.
Philly

 

[studders]

Disposable blades, thats wots needed.

:idea:

 

[woodbloke]

Not wanting to go too far off-topic, but its pretty easy to hone free-hand. The secret is to feel for the wire edge - that tells you you're sharpening where it counts, at the cutting edge.
It seems to be really easy to spend more money on sharpening gear and jigs than on tools :lol:
Just a thought.... I'll get me coat.
Philly

I know Philly, it is easy to sharpen freehand, but a honing guide provides you with a repeatable angle each time, which may or may not be the case with freehand honing, which may in itself be more difficult with A2 steels. As Matthew pointed out the VMkII with all the associated clobber will set you back £80+notes (almost enough for one of your planes...my turn for the coat :lol: ) whereas the KIII is about half that, and it will hone just about anything - Rob

 

[matthewwh]

There is nothing wrong with freehand honing. If you are good enough at it to produce a polished surface and a wire edge in a dozen strokes without increasing the bevel angle, then it is probably going to be quicker than using a guide.

In my experience, the 30 seconds or so spent setting up a guide are well worth it because I know that I can go back to precisely the arrangement I had last time and often get a wire edge on the first or second stroke. I do freehand sometimes, if only to keep my eye in, but to be honest I get better and more consistant results in less time using a guide.

I have heard stories about colleagues laughing at people for using honing guides. I wonder how much of it is macho pride in the skills that they have spent years perfecting and how much is fear of humiliation that some spotty oik with a honing guide will turn up and put a better edge on a set of chisels faster than they can.

Speaking of strokes, I believe Mr Grim has an excellent picture which may help the alternists who are looking to rustle up a bit of the elusive 'snake oil'. Never tried it myself but on this occasion I think I'll just take your word for it.

 

[Jake]

I think Jake was being facetious there Wouldn't that scenario actually round the front of the blade over?

If you went up the grits carefully enough, I think you would end up with a hyper-micro (slightly segmented) Grim-style rounded bevel.

 

[head clansman]

Hi


there is no way on this earth no matter how bloody good one might think you are at sharpening free hand that each time you pick that chisel or plane you will get the same angle when sharpening , neither will anyone get the polished razor sharp edge that scary sharpening will give you each and every time you use it to sharpen your tools for the perfect angle every single time .

 

[Philly]

Chaps
Its not about being macho, or even getting the exact same angle each time. I use my tools to make things, and I like them sharp. I don't have the time to waste with long drawn out routines when it comes time to hone - I just wander over to the stones and a few strokes later I go back to work. I'm no woodworking genius, I just know what I'm trying to achieve.
Jigs are an excellent way to achieve a result, just not the only way. And sometimes, sharp is enough, not "ultimate sharp" :wink:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Mr Ed]

I am catching up on this one (having been away walking in North Wales for 5 days) so have read the discussion so far all in one go, rather than over several days as it was written. The thread appears to be going in the direction that forum discussions do from time to time, where positions become entrenched and people start arguing their corner, rather than discussing the topic.

Could it be possible that some people like the Kell guide and others prefer the Veritas or Eclipse? People have these preferences on most other tools, so liking one honing guide or another (or none) is equally valid. There's a lot of very well informed opinion on this forum, and I always feel a bit disappointed when that gets Eclipsed (pun intended) by bickering and partisan posturing.

Anyway, enough of me on my moral high horse.

In my opinion the making of wedges and spacers and the use of bits of paper to get the Kell guide to do all the required jobs suggests that it is only half a system. The Veritas product looks to do all the required things (with the add ons purchased admittedly) out of the box. I should say I don't own and have never used either of these, managing to stumble along with a combination of a £10 Eclipse guide and a bit of freehand when feeling dextrous.

My angle on these things, and all tools, is that if you like it and can afford it then by all means go for it. Bear in mind though, if you're always looking for the new new thing, chances are you will jump from pillar to post ad infinitum. Apparently now diamond stones are out and scary sharp is in...well I tried scary sharp 10 years ago and didn't get on with sticking bits of paper onto glass, so I'll be keeping my diamond stones. My point on this being that you need to go with what you find works, not just what eveyone else is doing.

Cheers, Ed

 

[wizer]

So those of you who don't obsess about these things. What grade stones do you use? Primary bevel on the Tormek or Grinder... then...?

 

[MIGNAL]

Hi


there is no way on this earth no matter how bloody good one might think you are at sharpening free hand that each time you pick that chisel or plane you will get the same angle when sharpening , neither will anyone get the polished razor sharp edge that scary sharpening will give you each and every time you use it to sharpen your tools for the perfect angle every single time .

Not sure about that. Given a thick enough blade (hollow ground) it's more than possible. Difficulties occur with thin blades and narrow chisels but it wouldn't surprise me if someone had the skill to do even those.

 

[MIGNAL]

I am catching up on this one (having been away walking in North Wales for 5 days) so have read the discussion so far all in one go, rather than over several days as it was written. The thread appears to be going in the direction that forum discussions do from time to time, where positions become entrenched and people start arguing their corner, rather than discussing the topic.

Could it be possible that some people like the Kell guide and others prefer the Veritas or Eclipse? People have these preferences on most other tools, so liking one honing guide or another (or none) is equally valid. There's a lot of very well informed opinion on this forum, and I always feel a bit disappointed when that gets Eclipsed (pun intended) by bickering and partisan posturing.

Anyway, enough of me on my moral high horse.

In my opinion the making of wedges and spacers and the use of bits of paper to get the Kell guide to do all the required jobs suggests that it is only half a system. The Veritas product looks to do all the required things (with the add ons purchased admittedly) out of the box. I should say I don't own and have never used either of these, managing to stumble along with a combination of a £10 Eclipse guide and a bit of freehand when feeling dextrous.

My angle on these things, and all tools, is that if you like it and can afford it then by all means go for it. Bear in mind though, if you're always looking for the new new thing, chances are you will jump from pillar to post ad infinitum. Apparently now diamond stones are out and scary sharp is in...well I tried scary sharp 10 years ago and didn't get on with sticking bits of paper onto glass, so I'll be keeping my diamond stones. My point on this being that you need to go with what you find works, not just what eveyone else is doing.

Cheers, Ed

'Half a system' might be a little unkind, after all it's just a few wooden wedges. As someone who works wood I don't think it would put me off.