Keir Starmer

[ey_tony]

I agree it does need a grown up debate.

If you think there are too many people arriving her claiming asylum, which country do you think should take more?

To be honest I really don't care how many are given asylum in other countries. I'm concerned as to where the infrastructure is going to come from to keep pace with the migrant influx.
European countries are finally waking up to the fact that their nations can't continue on the current trajectory with regard to migrant numbers and such as Germany is plotting to do something similar to what the Tories weren't allowed to do by the UK's woke brigade.

Population growth is outstripping economic growth so that means = higher taxes and lower standards of living for everyone. If anyone disagrees then I'm quite amenable to reasoned debate.

 

[Chris152]

If anyone disagrees then I'm quite amenable to reasoned debate.

You write that but repeatedly make sweeping generalisations, caricatures of the left, socialism, immigrants, claim to be neither left nor right wing yet somehow a capitalist. I'm not sure that's a basis for reasoned debate.

 

[John Brown]

European countries are finally waking up to the fact that their nations can't continue on the current trajectory with regard to migrant numbers and such as Germany is plotting to do something similar to what the Tories weren't allowed to do by the UK's woke brigade.

Interesting juxtaposition of "waking up" and "woke brigade".
Make your mind up...

 

[Thingybob]

personally Im not too keen on our government inflicting suffering on to others

I like to think of the quote by Tony Benn:

"The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it."

And

 

[Billy_wizz]

I am not sure that is "the real question"


the vast majority of people who have fled from where live, stay in a neighbouring country, but they cant all remain in the region it would cause it to collapse, so the remainder that are displaced disperse over a wide area.

refugees have the right to choose where they want to claim asylum and some come to the UK


I understand it when people say "I dont want any coming here" but the result of that claim is somewhere else must take more...........and the people who say "I dont want them here" can never provide an answer to that.

A proportion of the people who are coming are arriving from safe countries it would be easier to care for those in genuine need if we could stop those who are just using the system for there own means from abusing the system!

 

[Jacob]

...... Germany is plotting to do something similar to what the Tories weren't allowed to do by the UK's woke brigade........

What something like the Rwanda project? Possibly one of the most un-woke and stupid ideas they ever came up with and a huge waste of money.
How long have you had this tedious, irrational, obsessive fear of immigrants? Maybe you should talk to somebody about it. Can't be doing you any good.

 

[Chris152]

BBC news this evening reported that the number of people being born in the UK is outpaced by the number of people dying. We have an ageing population that needs younger people to support it. People moving to the UK contribute to the UK economy, propping up us old farts. Thank goodness. Once we've popped our clogs, housing will become available, and rents will presumably drop.*
This is from
https://ageing-better.org.uk/our-ageing-population-state-ageing-2023-4 :

• The older population in England is getting larger. In the last 40 years, the number of people aged 50 and over has increased by over 6.8 million (a 47% increase), and the number aged 65 and over has increased by over 3.5 million (a 52% increase).
• Over 10 million people are currently aged 65 and over, making up 18% of the population.
• The number of people aged 65-79 is predicted to increase by nearly a third (30%) to over 10 million in the next 40 years, while the number of people aged 80 and over – the fastest growing segment of the population – is set to more than double to over 6 million.
• The older population is growing fastest in many rural and coastal areas, where the proportion of older people is already higher. In some rural and coastal local authority areas, one in three people are aged 65 and over compared with one in five across the country.
• At the same time, the population of people aged under 20 is predicted to decrease over the next 40 years.

* Getting my threads mixed up here!

 

[woodieallen]

I agree it does need a grown up debate.

If you think there are too many people arriving her claiming asylum, which country do you think should take more?

Help them to stay in their own country and make it a better place, perhaps ?

 

[woodieallen]

....People moving to the UK contribute to the UK economy, propping up us old farts. Thank goodness. Once we've popped our clogs, housing will become available, and rents will presumably drop.
...

Please explain how an illegal immigrant coming to this country will contribute to the UK economy.

 

[RobinBHM]

To be honest I really don't care how many are given asylum in other countries

Unfortunately if you don’t care whether other countries will take more, by definition you can’t care about less coming here.

Germany is plotting to do something similar to what the Tories weren't allowed to do by

Actually it is not the same scheme at all, the German scheme is for processing only not deportation

https://news.sky.com/story/germany-...to-rwanda-after-uk-ditches-same-idea-13210359

 

[Chris152]

Please explain how an illegal immigrant coming to this country will contribute to the UK economy.

I didn't mention illegal immigrants.

Please explain how a bumblebee flies.

 

[RobinBHM]

To be honest I really don't care how many are given asylum in other countries

Unfortunately if you don’t care whether other countries will take more, by definition you can’t care about less coming here.

Germany is plotting to do something similar to what the Tories weren't allowed to do by

Actually it is not the same scheme at all, the German scheme is for processing only not deportation



https://news.sky.com/story/germany-...to-rwanda-after-uk-ditches-same-idea-13210359

 

[RobinBHM]

A proportion of the people who are coming are arriving from safe countries it would be easier to care for those in genuine need if we could stop those who are just using the system for there own means from abusing the system!

If I understand you correctly you are using the argument that those coming from safe countries are “abusing the system”

Let’s explore the facts: these are people who have travelled mostly from the North coast of Africa or Middle East and into Southern Europe.

These people will disperse across mainland Europe, some will cross the channel and come here….so every single one will have come from a safe country

The fact that U.K. is located geographically the furthest away, is just arbitrary…..just because some want to claim asylum in U.K. despite passing through safe countries does not mean they are abusing the system.

Evidence shows that the majority are genuine and come from countries of war or persecution like: Syria, Eritrea, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan.

 

[RobinBHM]

Please explain how an illegal immigrant coming to this country will contribute to the UK economy.

Process them quickly, those that attain asylum can join the economy and work.

People seem to think these people are goat herders, but many are professionals with healthcare, engineering, IT skills

 

[AJB Temple]

Leaving aside the likelihood of huge mass migration for climate change and economic reasons, that may eventually result in a human deluge into Europe.....I can't help but think that two highly developed and adjacent countries, France and Britain, should by now have got their act together to prevent people getting into overloaded inflate-able boats with weak engines, and navigating across a very busy shipping system with strong currents and often difficult sea conditions. It's like turning a blind eye to a suicide lottery. France and Britain need to deal with it. France is incentivised to let people leave France obviously, but that is no excuse. We need to co-operate with each other.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

BBC news this evening reported that the number of people being born in the UK is outpaced by the number of people dying. We have an ageing population that needs younger people to support it. People moving to the UK contribute to the UK economy, propping up us old farts. Thank goodness. Once we've popped our clogs, housing will become available, and rents will presumably drop.*
This is from
https://ageing-better.org.uk/our-ageing-population-state-ageing-2023-4 :

• The older population in England is getting larger. In the last 40 years, the number of people aged 50 and over has increased by over 6.8 million (a 47% increase), and the number aged 65 and over has increased by over 3.5 million (a 52% increase).
• Over 10 million people are currently aged 65 and over, making up 18% of the population.
• The number of people aged 65-79 is predicted to increase by nearly a third (30%) to over 10 million in the next 40 years, while the number of people aged 80 and over – the fastest growing segment of the population – is set to more than double to over 6 million.
• The older population is growing fastest in many rural and coastal areas, where the proportion of older people is already higher. In some rural and coastal local authority areas, one in three people are aged 65 and over compared with one in five across the country.
• At the same time, the population of people aged under 20 is predicted to decrease over the next 40 years.

* Getting my threads mixed up here!

That deaths are exceeding births is becoming the norm in many developed countries. Largely attributed to improvements in economic performance and medical science. Initially reduces child mortality increasing populations, social change follows reducing reproduction rates.

Long term reducing population is positive - most negative issues are driven by population size - air quality, water resources, land use, pollution, raw material extraction, lebensraum, food etc.

Importing young people to fill gaps the UK demographic mix cannot is not a long term solution:

• infrastructure stresses - immediate expansion needed - housing, schools, healthcare etc
• as immigrant populations inevitably age they become the problem not the solution - the gap between available skills and demand increases further
• if population growth reduces in those countries providing migrant skills and labour, supply will start to dry up as opportunities in their native countries increase
• there is a moral challenge - recruiting trained and competent workers from other less developed countries denies them the skills they desperately need

A strategy is needed which balances jobs that need doing with the resources available. There is no quick fix but the actions may include:

• make optimal use of AI and automation rather than regarding it as a threat
• training - carrot and stick for those not currently contributing to the economy
• tax and legislative changes making it much more attractive for those who can to work (full or part time) past normal retirement age
• increased retirement age and benefits through deferring pension

Much more controversial - reduce expectations to match labour and skills supply to demand. Net consumers of labour are the young who both deserve and need education and will provide the future pool of labour.

The elderly do not contribute directly. A sad reality - medical progress allows frail older people to survive longer, leading to more years in poor health. I question whether pursuit of everlasting life makes sense. Not an easy subject but denial because it is too difficult is not a solution.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Leaving aside the likelihood of huge mass migration for climate change and economic reasons, that may eventually result in a human deluge into Europe.....I can't help but think that two highly developed and adjacent countries, France and Britain, should by now have got their act together to prevent people getting into overloaded inflate-able boats with weak engines, and navigating across a very busy shipping system with strong currents and often difficult sea conditions. It's like turning a blind eye to a suicide lottery. France and Britain need to deal with it. France is incentivised to let people leave France obviously, but that is no excuse. We need to co-operate with each other.

The French are content to see their illegal immigrants leave and will continue to pay lip service to "cooperation" and "smashing the gangs". I don't see this changing.

In 2023 there were 67000 asylum applications. 5000 were returned - a higher number than in recent years as it included a significant number of Albanians.

Immigrants who get to the English Channel need to be determined and resilient. They must see asylum processes as laughable by comparison to their life experiences. They know the probability of deportation is low and a risk they are evidently prepared to take.

We have politicians of both parties who want to create the illusion of action whilst doing nothing constructive or effective. The only way to halt the flow is to make the cross channel journey and asylum claim a deterrent - may include:

• asylum claims to be made on line before arrival with very clear criteria.
• only one claim allowed, a decision within three months, and no repeated appeals
• sink the boats as they enter UK waters
• deportation within 1 month if asylum claim not approved

I make no moral judgement as to whether these are acceptable ideas, nor whether they break international law or agreements the UK has signed up to. But the charade needs to stop - either do something effective or accept a continual flow of illegal migrants.

 

[ey_tony]

What something like the Rwanda project? Possibly one of the most un-woke and stupid ideas they ever came up with and a huge waste of money.
How long have you had this tedious and irrational obsession and fear of immigrants? Maybe you should talk to somebody about it. Can't be doing you any good.

OK just for you and the other left wing migrant lovers I'll explain.
Right now, this country doesn't have the finances or infrastructure capacity to meet the needs of the people already living here.... which part of that don't you understand so far?
We wouldn't be faced with austerity cuts if we had so encouraging and allowing unrestricted numbers of migrants to come here is not going to improve the quality of life of those who already live here in fact it will fall as we are seeing now...do you understand that bit?
Since the year 2000, the population has risen by 18.5% so my so called obsession is nothing to do with individual migrants as such, it's to do with the numbers and the economics behind migration policies.
For the past 15 years the UK has not been raising enough in taxes which means we have as a nation been living above our means and the UK governments have been borrowing money just to fund everyday living expenses in an attempt to maintain the standard of living for those already living here...much like when people use credit cards for everyday living expenses which inevitably results in debt....are you with me so far?
The cost of interest on loan repayments is the equivalent of the Education bill, it's simply unsustainable.

I have no issue with migrants coming here if we can afford them and they bring with them skills/benefits to this country but we can't afford them if we have to borrow just to fund their presence.
I'll wager now that if the UK doesn't seriously restrict the numbers entering the UK in the foreseeable future, then any housebuilding gains which so far looks very tenuous indeed, will not benefit or reduce the rental housing shortage as they will be needed just to house incoming migrants. On top of that this government seems determined to make it more difficult for people to invest their money in property to rent out so we will be facing an even bigger rental housing crisis especially if migrant numbers aren't restricted.

Sorry unlike you I can't allow facts to get in the way of a good story. The UK has a serious housing and infrastructure crisis. Encouraging immigration into the UK right now is patently stupid and while Rwanda may have seemed bizarre to someone like you, you actually missed the point that it was meant as a deterrent for those who would try and come here on the pretext of claiming asylum when in fact they were economic migrants.

 

[spanner48]

If I understand you correctly you are using the argument that those coming from safe countries are “abusing the system”

Let’s explore the facts: these are people who have travelled mostly from the North coast of Africa or Middle East and into Southern Europe.

These people will disperse across mainland Europe, some will cross the channel and come here….so every single one will have come from a safe country

The fact that U.K. is located geographically the furthest away, is just arbitrary…..just because some want to claim asylum in U.K. despite passing through safe countries does not mean they are abusing the system.

Evidence shows that the majority are genuine and come from countries of war or persecution like: Syria, Eritrea, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan.

Refugees:

Migrants:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

How long have you had this tedious and irrational obsession and fear of immigrants?

Since the they increased the population by 10,000,000? Just a thought, though that's hardly irrational.