Just use the blade guard!

[DennisCA]

Unfortunately too many people use sleds which is why the guard often comes off.

I always say it but if sleds were a good/safe idea the machinery manufacturers would be making them and falling over themselves to get you to buy their latest model. I don't know of any available commercially and the homemade element just adds to the dangers.

Just buy a slider, much safer.

I have a slider and I don't use the guard. Sleds are fine IMO.

edit: Overarm guard solves the issue btw.

 

[Jacob]

..... semantics will not dilute the overall legality of safety guards within a commercial environment.
....everyone could produce a push stick if asked....

The guidance doesn't exclude alternative safe practices. Being able to wave a push stick but not using them would be faking a safe practice, like taking off guards as soon as HSE is out of the door.
The critical issue with push sticks is their accident record in use, which I assume is very low. Could be wrong - is there a hidden hazard?
PS I've never used a sled but have always had a sliding table. Still use push sticks with that if contact/pressure needed close to the blade, e.g. short pieces being cross cut.
PPS I use the fence on the sliding table in front of the workpiece, not behind it, so have to hold the workpiece up to the fence. Seems better control somehow, not least because you don't have to lean over the fence to see how things are lying, you get a good clear view from the back.

 

[simonh]

A lot in the US seem to like the low slung push sticks or Grrrpr blocks to push the material down and forward. I found my best investment was the JessEm clear cut guides that keep the stock pushed down and toward the fence, then I can just use a birds beak type long sticks to push the material. I use a pair so that my hands aren't free and everything is done with the disposable push sticks

 

[Just4Fun]

OK, as a hand-tool woodworker I am totally the wrong person to comment on any power tool thread so this may be a silly question; if so, please excuse my ignorance.

Circular saws and mitre saws have a guarded blade and the guard is automatically moved out of the way during a cut. Is it possible to do the same thing with a table saw? I can imagine ways of doing it in some cases but does any manufacturer actually do it? Does anyone devise their own automatically-moving guard? Or is it always up to the user to place the guard in position?

 

[shed9]

To potentially add some more positive to this thread, there were actually some good points to take away from the original video in the first post, mainly aspects like;

> Planning
> Eye and ear protection
> The reality of being able to use a phone if you need to
> Availability of good bleed control
> Staying calm
> To know where your relevant emergency facilities are

Given the impact of COVID, some A&E's around the globe have limited access and in some cases are simply not available to the extent that you may likely need it should that need arise. All the more reason to make sure you are prepared and know what options you have relevant to the changing circumstances. I have several Stein Bleed Control kits around me, I keep one in my workshop, one with my chainsaw pack and one in the gator. I know people whose lives have been saved with packs like these, albeit for chainsaw injuries. There are cheaper (and more expensive) kits available and you can easily make your own up with Celox or Woundclot powders, tourniquets and bandages, etc. I know the status of my local A&E's and link to them via social media to pick up on changes. When working alone at home with machinery, I make sure I have a working phone with speed dial and tell people where I am and what I'm doing. There are lots to add to that process but it's a case of knowing that it doesn't hurt to review your options before you potentially have an accident is my point.

To add, I'm not some retentive safety overlord, I'm just not fond of pain is all and I genuinely cannot afford to injure myself, not that anyone else probably can.

 

[TRITON]

I'm out, it's clear you people don't drink enough Vodka.

 

[Doug71]

OK, as a hand-tool woodworker I am totally the wrong person to comment on any power tool thread so this may be a silly question; if so, please excuse my ignorance.

Circular saws and mitre saws have a guarded blade and the guard is automatically moved out of the way during a cut. Is it possible to do the same thing with a table saw? I can imagine ways of doing it in some cases but does any manufacturer actually do it? Does anyone devise their own automatically-moving guard? Or is it always up to the user to place the guard in position?

The proper SUVA type guards that you would expect to find in a professional workshop ride up over the wood as you push it through then drop down again once you have finished the cut so the blade is always covered. You can get different ones to be mounted on the riving knife or overhead.

The only thing I wonder about them is if you had your hand on the wood as you pushed it through it would lift up and let you cut your hand, I guess some might be available with a height stop so you can set it to not lift above the level of the timber


https://www.scosarg.com/suva-s315-circular-saw-guard-with-riving-knife

 

[Jar944]

I have a slider and I don't use the guard. Sleds are fine IMO.

edit: Overarm guard solves the issue btw.

I use a overarm, but it gets in the way of the sled. (Joking)

It does keep you from cutting your fingers off when ripping though.

 

[TRITON]

OMG Look at the size of that workshop.

I've got workshop envy now.

 

[MarkDennehy]

But that and a propensity to put ones fingers near the blade tend to be the main reasons for injuries like that

Well. Kickback can pull your fingers into the blade too. More than one video on youtube of someone doing that or demonstrating that.
Also, kickback can act on the bit of wood that's not between fence and blade, like so:



That one punched the offcut bit through an internal partition wall on the far side of the workshop.
Have I mentioned tablesaws terrify me as much as routers do?

Here’s an imaginary story for you...
A person has ten pints, gets in their car, doesn’t put their seatbelt on and crashes into a wall, they die. Is this an accident?
By your logic yes. They didn’t deliberately intend to crash.
By many others no. The person deliberately created an unsafe condition.

I think that's conflating the definition of an accident (which that would be, it's referred to as an RTA regardless of cause), legal liability (which the driver absolutely has in that case) and mens rea (which after ten pints you'd have a hard time proving they had because after ten pints you can't legally be held to a contract you signed because you were incapable - you can't be capable enough to plan a crime while incapable. It is arguable that you could have planned to get drunk and then to drive home drunk hoping to kill someone for the lolz becuase that's the world we live in, but you'd have to make the argument. Granted, we have had a few very very disturbing legal arguments on that exact point in Ireland over the last few decades but it's still on the old case-by-case basis...)

Anyway.

On a more on-topic note, James Hamilton (a youtuber you probably all have seen at some point) had a pretty nasty accident with an angle grinder with chainsaw wheel attachment last year and yes, I do believe my knees just clenched typing that, and he has a few good videos on the whole topic (understandably so, something like that would concentrate the mind well) that are of interest (there are one or two others on his channel past these ones if you're interested, but these cover the guts of it, pardon the awful pun):





Personally I hope this one is the one I'll rewatch the most though, because I'm not immune to being a slow learner when machismo gets thrown around...

 

[MarkDennehy]

Oh, and there are so many others - the number of videos on youtube of both professional woodworkers/contractors/jointers and youtubers who have managed to put their fingers into a tablesaw, a bandsaw, a router, a spindle moulder, a jointer or even just those woodturners who lost a finger because they had a catch while using a lathe knife, it's almost enough to make you buy furniture from ikea






The thing that freaks me out completely on this topic though is stuff like the opening bit in this video:



That's Jonathan Katz-Moses (he of the rather good transparent dovetail guide) talking about his accident and starting off by saying that anyone in woodworking is just going to have an accident and it might be minor or it might be an amputation but the important thing is to have a well-stocked first aid kit and a plan.


I mean, stall the digger there a moment - can we talk about this whole "accidents are inevitable" bit? I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this plan where losing a finger is just an accepted fact of life here Sign me up with every nanny-state, left-wing, commie pinko anarcho-hippie tree-hugging Health And Safety freak in the world if that's the other option I mean, yeah, sure, life was great in the 70's but you know what else is different between today and the 70s when I was a kid? Our child mortality rate. It is (in Ireland anyway, check yours locally) currently one tenth what it was when I was born. I'm totally in favour of this, not least because Calum is nine and I'd like him to survive to my old age so he can pay for my retirement I'm totally down with some busybody with a clipboard coming in with his pencils and his glasses and his nasally voice saying "that's not safe, stop it at once" if the alternative is the calm manly dulcet tones of Katz-Moses up there reassuring me that now that I have to relearn how to wipe my bottom with my remaining fingers, I'm a Real Man

 

[Cabinetman]

First off, sorry I haven’t watched them all but the first one where the bit flies back through the wall well he’s using one of those damn push blocks and he doesn’t have anything in his left hand to control the other piece of wood, if he had two push sticks I’m certain it wouldn’t have happened.
The last one where the American guy puts his thumb into the cutters of his planer, well it’s very simple he's a total id iot, where the hell was his guard? And I think you said he was the one that said we’re all going to have an accident – no doesn’t have to happen, but people probably will if they follow him.
It really really bugs me that idiots like him think they can stand up and tell everybody else how to use equipment. He ought to be locked up for everybody’s else’s safety. Ian

 

[TheTiddles]

It almost seems like the more YouTube videos you make the worse you are at woodwork, safety aside plenty of the most prolific posters are really not making anything very good.

Whereas you have to wait ages for a Doucette and Wolfe post

Aidan

 

[DennisCA]

That russian knife tool looks really insanely dangerous, but couldn't you at least but some kind of cross guard on it to make it a bit safer so it doesn't run over your fingers and cut your tenons if you get a catch.

 

[docw]

Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
Ergo it was an accident.

And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.

If this helps you
Dictionary definition...


Some key words for you to take notice of. "Unintentionally" "Unexpectedly"

Have a nice day now, y'hear

 

[doctor Bob]

This is my slider.

It's an old picture from a few years ago. Note the roll of masking tape and the 250mm measuring stick hooked on the side of guard, this was for convienience, however I soon realised that if they were knocked off the natural reaction is to try and catch them. Realised it was an accident waiting to happen,

 

[pidgeonpost]

I saw a carpenters workshop in Rwanda, huge old cast iron machines, no extraction (but plenty of ventilation as there were no walls), open belt drives and petrol engines driving, not a guard in sight.

Not a single person there had all their fingers, including the children, some were missing several.

Brings back memories of using a big ex-military trailer mounted table saw. It was powered by a two-cylinder diesel engine and I don't know what scared me most, the saw itself or the kick-back when hand-cranking the b****y thing. This saw did not take prisoners.

 

[Jacob]

This is my slider.

It's an old picture from a few years ago. Note the roll of masking tape and the 250mm measuring stick hooked on the side of guard, this was for convienience, however I soon realised that if they were knocked off the natural reaction is to try and catch them. Realised it was an accident waiting to happen,

Mine's similar but a lot smaller! Size isn't everything.
Bobby raises a point - accident caused by trying to catch or stop something. You have to get tuned in to treating your machine like a wild animal - it's OK to feed it meat on the end of a stick but if it growls it may be time to drop the stick and back right off, rather than trying to take control.
If it's going to go, back off, turn away, let it fly, don't try to stop it.

 

[alex_heney]

the HSE is clear

absolutely they do not prohibit dangerous activities, but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.

I hate people saying "it is NOT an accident".

All that shows is your ignorance of the meaning of the word.

"Accident" does NOT mean "unpreventable mishap". It means any unintended consequence (usually negative, but not necessarily).

 

[DennisCA]

I think the word people are looking for is negligence