Joinery software

[Ollie78]

A bit of a random one but does anyone here use any kind of joinery specific software such as endtoend, Joinery soft, Calwin, Cinch, or something I haven`t found yet.
One thing they all have in common is the fact that the price is not shown, which is a worrying sign to say the least.

I am sort of curious as to the usefulness of this type of software vs its investment cost. One of them at least says it automatically provides a u value for windows and most of them produce a cutting list etc.

So any knowledge about these would be interesting to me.

Thanks

Ollie

 

[HOJ]

They don't advertise the price until you get hooked in, I did go through the demo's with Joinery soft, but then the pricing kicked in, which is clever as it is a modular package, the base price at the time was just shy of £2K to get the operating system then the same again for each module thereafter x 1,2,3,4,5..

I know of people that use these types of packages but they have also spent ££££££'s on tooling and machines to optimise their processes, and consequently deskill, but interestingly they then can't make anything outside the scope of the software/machine setups, Tommy Trinder (not the comic) is another piece of software that seems to be being pushed to help you increase sales.

 

[Doug71]

A chap I know recently got prices from 5 different suppliers for 15 Accoya sash windows for his house (listed so all Heritage DG etc). The prices ranged from £68,000 to £73,000, he was surprised how close the prices were, I suggested they probably just all used the same pricing software.

 

[Spectric]

I would say that Autodesk probably has a library for woodworking, it has them for most things but also a hefty price tag. What are you looking to achieve from the software ?

I use Qcad Pro which is about £30 a year, has a good forum and support which I have been using for some time now and it is really good. I make my own libraries for items such as router cutter profiles and fittings so they can be used when ever I need them and it has helped with built up profiles and working out the best way to make a certain jig.

 

[Ollie78]

Thanks for the replies

@HOJ I suspected this was the case from the way they want you to get in touch and the general way they set out thier websites. I have seen the same when looking at CAD/CAM software for more general stuff.

@Doug71 They probably do have similar software but there is certain fixed costs with this stuff the Accoya costs the same for all of them and the DGU`s wont be far off each other either. I think it sounds a bit steep at 4.5k a window but if thats what the software says, I guess they could be massive and accoya is expensive. This is one reason the software might be handy !!

@Spectric I have not checked autodesk but I am sure its not cheap. Interesting what you say about building up component libraries, like in Vcarve and fusion 360 where you enter all the router bit shapes ?

What attracted me to the idea of the joinery specific software was the ability to quickly price up a job for quoting but then also to get a cutting/ component list out of it to speed up production. Also some of them work out the U values fore you or at least claim to.

For example I have a job to do, only 12 windows , the architect has sent me his drawings but needs profile and glazing detail drawings for the heritage people, U values and trickle vents for the building regs etc, all this is a bit of a pain in the ass and is quite time consuming.
I don`t particularly love doing windows but people keep asking me to do the wierd ones and those others have refused, I just like doing furniture really.

Ollie

Edit, just found out about plugins for fusion 360 so might be something there, might try joinercad plugin.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Thanks for the replies

@HOJ I suspected this was the case from the way they want you to get in touch and the general way they set out thier websites. I have seen the same when looking at CAD/CAM software for more general stuff.

@Doug71 They probably do have similar software but there is certain fixed costs with this stuff the Accoya costs the same for all of them and the DGU`s wont be far off each other either. I think it sounds a bit steep at 4.5k a window but if thats what the software says, I guess they could be massive and accoya is expensive. This is one reason the software might be handy !!

@Spectric I have not checked autodesk but I am sure its not cheap. Interesting what you say about building up component libraries, like in Vcarve and fusion 360 where you enter all the router bit shapes ?

What attracted me to the idea of the joinery specific software was the ability to quickly price up a job for quoting but then also to get a cutting/ component list out of it to speed up production. Also some of them work out the U values fore you or at least claim to.

For example I have a job to do, only 12 windows , the architect has sent me his drawings but needs profile and glazing detail drawings for the heritage people, U values and trickle vents for the building regs etc, all this is a bit of a pain in the ass and is quite time consuming.
I don`t particularly love doing windows but people keep asking me to do the wierd ones and those others have refused, I just like doing furniture really.

Ollie

Edit, just found out about plugins for fusion 360 so might be something there, might try joinercad plugin.

I’m just trying OpenBOM plug-in with Fusion 360. Bit clunky but seems capable of creating a cutting list from a Fusion drawing.

 

[Martin Green]

I would say that Autodesk probably has a library for woodworking, it has them for most things but also a hefty price tag. What are you looking to achieve from the software ?

I use Qcad Pro which is about £30 a year, has a good forum and support which I have been using for some time now and it is really good. I make my own libraries for items such as router cutter profiles and fittings so they can be used when ever I need them and it has helped with built up profiles and working out the best way to make a certain jig.

sketchup 2017 is free took me two years to find. super easy, even more after learn the tricks.....

 

[Martin Green]

sketchup 2017 is free took me two years to find. super easy, even more after learn the tricks.....

itll ask you every time you open it if you want to up grade. click start and ignore. also lots of warehouse freen demos

 

[mwinfrance]

I somehow don't think that the even the paid version of sketch up is going to calculate U values.
If you want free 3D software ..Blender..it might do cutting lists ( I'd have to ask my son about that , he's a Blender "guru" ) probably not though, he could probably write a plugin to do cutting lists and U values. But Blender takes a huge amount of getting used to, as it does the work of so many Autodesk type products, but all in just the one software.

 

[Spectric]

Once you think about this problem then the U values will be determined by the area of glass in a given window and I would have thought the glass sealed unit supplier / manufacturer would have tables of U values for the units they supply. The only part you have control over will be the ratio of wood to window, ie just one big sealed unit or multiples and so just some basic maths will be needed. You could with the data produce a spreadsheet that would then do these calcs for you.

U values and trickle vents for the building regs etc

When I had a small window replaced the firm gave me the U value for their sealed unit but at the same time thought it was somewhat daft that they supply a double glazed window and then have to make it leak, ie trickle vent so defeating the idea. Again with a spreadsheet it could give you cost, all you need to figure out is percentages of labour and material cost to produce a given window. The double glazing firms use a simple calculation based on fixed window or opening, then the type and number of opening windows within a unit. Ie fixed panel and top opener or whole window opens etc etc.

 

[Ollie78]

Once you think about this problem then the U values will be determined by the area of glass in a given window and I would have thought the glass sealed unit supplier / manufacturer would have tables of U values for the units they supply. The only part you have control over will be the ratio of wood to window, ie just one big sealed unit or multiples and so just some basic maths will be needed. You could with the data produce a spreadsheet that would then do these calcs for you.



When I had a small window replaced the firm gave me the U value for their sealed unit but at the same time thought it was somewhat daft that they supply a double glazed window and then have to make it leak, ie trickle vent so defeating the idea. Again with a spreadsheet it could give you cost, all you need to figure out is percentages of labour and material cost to produce a given window. The double glazing firms use a simple calculation based on fixed window or opening, then the type and number of opening windows within a unit. Ie fixed panel and top opener or whole window opens etc etc.

I agree that trickle vents are pure nonsense, especially when aiming for a passive house type design. I argue that if the window has a 2 position handle or night vent function then this should count as a trickle vent.
The u values I can work out but depending on the particular building inspector and situation some are requiring an actual certification which some of the software does apparently offer.
Would have been good to be able to have a nice parts list generated and sort of easy continuity throughout the job and all that but I think for the money involved it is not worth it for me, I do mainly one offs anyway.
I don't mind investing in stuff but it has to be reasonable.

Ollie

 

[HOJ]

For example I have a job to do, only 12 windows , the architect has sent me his drawings but needs profile and glazing detail drawings for the heritage people, U values and trickle vents for the building regs etc, all this is a bit of a pain in the ass and is quite time consuming.

Are you on a retainer to do all the extra detailing?

I am now working on a project for a conservation project making accoya windows, taken over 8 months to get all the detailing and planning through, when I finalised my costings client was surprised at the extra costs over the original estimate, the architect didn't have a clue how to make a window, so we were in regular contact sorting it all out, more input from my side than his.

 

[RobinBHM]

Are you on a retainer to do all the extra detailing?

I am now working on a project for a conservation project making accoya windows, taken over 8 months to get all the detailing and planning through, when I finalised my costings client was surprised at the extra costs over the original estimate, the architect didn't have a clue how to make a window, so we were in regular contact sorting it all out, more input from my side than his.

thats familiar territory to me.

architects detail drawings of joinery often need tweaking in order to work.

A bit of a random one but does anyone here use any kind of joinery specific software such as endtoend, Joinery soft, Calwin, Cinch, or something I haven`t found yet.
One thing they all have in common is the fact that the price is not shown, which is a worrying sign to say the least.

I am sort of curious as to the usefulness of this type of software vs its investment cost. One of them at least says it automatically provides a u value for windows and most of them produce a cutting list etc.

So any knowledge about these would be interesting to me.

Thanks

Ollie

I bought the joinerysoft system - quite a few years ago now.

It takes quite a long time to learn and quite a fair time to set up.

I had a window tooling set up and often made flush, high performance flush and stormproof set ups.

I don’t think such a software system would suit a joinery shop that concentrates on highly bespoke joinery, made to match existing windows on listed / period properties.

 

[HOJ]

I don’t think such a software system would suit a joinery shop that concentrates on highly bespoke joinery, made to match existing windows on listed / period properties.

That was my conclusion, and still stands, I also looked at the Trend system when it first came out, thinking it may be a good option but soon worked out its was a one trick pony, and constrained in its flexibility, I can honestly say I have never made the same style/profile of window twice.



No amount of software is going to help me with this one!

 

[Ollie78]

Are you on a retainer to do all the extra detailing?

I am now working on a project for a conservation project making accoya windows, taken over 8 months to get all the detailing and planning through, when I finalised my costings client was surprised at the extra costs over the original estimate, the architect didn't have a clue how to make a window, so we were in regular contact sorting it all out, more input from my side than his.

Not currently, I have given an estimate based on the current amount of knowledge I have recieved from the architect, I have priced the glass, materials etc as if its simple flush casements with a profile I have sent a drawing of, using aquamac seals.
The architects drawing was a sort of generic stormproof, I suggested flush casements would be more in keeping. I also suggested that fewer georgian bars would save a lot of money and look better but apparently the site has a "complicated history" and the conservation people are, and I quote "not too happy about it" and extremely unlikely to allow any changes.
I am currently looking into some sort of above the head trickle vent system to avoid nasty looking vents, its like they haven`t thought many window details through.

@RobinBHM Thanks for sharing your experience with the joinery soft system, I am certainly thinking this type of software is not where I need to go, I don`t really want to become a window manufacturer, just trying to get a few done easier.


Ollie

 

[space.dandy]

I am currently looking into some sort of above the head trickle vent system to avoid nasty looking vents, its like they haven`t thought many window details through.

Bradshaw Joinery fairly recently released a YouTube video showing the full construction of a sash window. He had a neat solution for the trickle vent.

 

[RobinBHM]

@RobinBHM Thanks for sharing your experience with the joinery soft system, I am certainly thinking this type of software is not where I need to go, I don`t really want to become a window manufacturer, just trying to get a few done easier

Joinerysoft is actually very powerful in terms of bespoke options.

Say a joinery shop has a house style for a flush heritage single glazed window. In joinerysoft you can create that style by entering every component section, rebate size, margin, check rebate, etc etc.

Once you have that in the programme, you can copy it and rename it, then alter the sizes to create a new style

Or you can take the original house style, go to ”add new window” then add changes on the fly.

So the number of styles is unlimited.


However if you want to increase your productivity but not be tied to a complex programme to learn, I would say use this process:

1) you probably have a load of “house style elements” which you apply to any job: ie 3mm butt hinge margin, minimum 22mm flat on moulding for casement stay, 15mm rebate for aquamac 21 etc etc.

2) from above, I would say do CAD drawings of each, showing section sizes and their position to each other.

3) from the drawings, create a spreadsheet which can work out some critical dimensions: eg: if you enter the frame external size it can tell you the rebate width and height.

Then you can use the spreadsheet to deduct the sash gross width and height, net width and height ( after shooting in), glass size etc.


I routinely use spreadsheets for this stuff. One thing they are very useful for is cumulative dimensions: say you need to mark out a 15 pane glass door for mortices, a spreadsheet can quickly give you a series of dimensions, you put your tape measure on one of the stile and just strike a mark at each dimension. (Just choose your horn size 1st then include that as the first measurement)