US Election November 5th

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RobinBHM said:
what do people think of Taylor Swifts latest album?

Noel said:
Swift could well have a big influence on Nov 5th. Lots of past history too.

Some of her song titles see apt!

Guilty as sin.
I knew you were trouble.
Bad blood.
You need to calm down.
 
Agent_zed said:
Out of interest could you name some actual things he has done. I am genuinely interested to learn what things he actually did right or is going to do right.
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I asked the same in response to another previous poster. Like yourself, I've had no response.

It's unsurprisingly somewhat like that huge list of Brexit benefits that seem to mysteriously disappear when any query is made about actual concrete actions.
 
sploo said:
I asked the same in response to another previous poster. Like yourself, I've had no response.

It's unsurprisingly somewhat like that huge list of Brexit benefits that seem to mysteriously disappear when any query is made about actual concrete actions.
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This was the BBC’s take on it …

US election 2020: Has Trump delivered on his promises? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37982000
 
Blackswanwood said:
This was the BBC’s take on it …

US election 2020: Has Trump delivered on his promises? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37982000
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So... a mixed bag, and the promises that were actually delivered were likely to actually not be good for the majority of US citizens in the long term (I'm including tax cuts in that; as they generally help the wealthy far more, and simply take money out of the system that needs to be later covered at the point of use... likely costing the poorest more).
 
Inresting discussion about why Trump has so many followers, but many are fanatical so-called Christians who sincerely believe in the Rapture. When Trump moved the US emabassy from Tel Aviv back to Jerusalem he was supporting those religious radicals as they saw it as a move to "The End Times". There is so much depth to this easily dismissed part of the Trump "fan base" but those barking mad radicals have the same level of 'belief' as do the Islamists who see it as their duty to help their invible god by chopping our heads off. Of course both sets of nutters were created by the writers who invented Abraham and the "covenant" he passed on from his insible god. Chop of you baby son's foreskin and I will take you to the promised land. Even the radical Jews don't get the joke but most Jews I know just like being 'Jewish' and are secular by nature. Anyway back to bowl turning and my latest blog post on GB Energy and the monarchy. Ruskinweb.co.uk
 
Terry - Somerset said:
You make an interesting point.

Society (mostly) regards material wealth as the principal measure of status and success. These perceptions are reinforced by the media in its reporting of news, film, TV, celebrity etc.

There are exceptions - those who take pleasure from contributing to the well being of others, for whom pursuit of the material seems shallow, who have reached a point in life's journey where health, relationships etc take priority. They are the minority.

But for many, continually challenged to afford the basics in life, it is easy to believe acquisition of the baubles will solve life's problems - cars, houses, clothes, jewellery etc. They also believe the perception by others of their status will be enhanced by the material.

Trump builds upon these aspirations - a vote for Trump will be an enabler of personal success. That it is ultimately shallow, may not deliver happiness, achieves its goals through denial of others, etc is not the point.

It is the philosophy of self interest in action - "make America great again" and "make me great". His popularity is no surprise - there is a clarity of intent many are very happy to endorse. That the ideology is simplistic and at its heart, unfair, is not a concern to his supporters.

Criticism will not change sentiment. His supporters need to be sold a better, more convincing, alternative future - one to which they will willingly switch support.
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That’s a fair discussion but again I think those who hate him are missing the bigger picture.

How about we inverse your position by simply saying ‘we get the man we need, not the one we want’.

Trump is an awful messenger at times but he got very good results and for the people who needed it the most.

You can’t argue with results. People spend too much time focusing on the messenger.
 
Chris152 said:
My sensibilities aren't hurt, I find it fascinating, if rather worrying.

I was thinking about why I can't get my head around a society that thinks trump is 'presidential material' while I was fishing this evening - drizzle, quite a rough sea but very lovely.

It's really quite simple, I think.

Take a fundamentally consumerist society, where excess is evident at every turn - whether a result of excessive poverty or wealth - and where accumulation of wealth and/ or power is valued above all else; a society which sees itself in decline relative to other burgeoning super powers; mix that with a culture where truth is constantly dissolved in the face of 'alternative truths'; add in some scapegoats - immigrants, foreigners, communists etc - to tap in to deep-seated xenophobia or racism or whatever, in order to explain that decline. And so on (I was concentrating on the fish I wasn't catching, not sure where the misogyny, toxic masculinity, bullying etc comes in but it's there.) It's a kind of culture of illusion, a dream world invented to create profit and power. One that watches too much TV.

Now offer a figurehead, who appears to embody all that your culture has encouraged you to value and promises to do the same for you, to fix things, sort out your enemies, and to make you and yours 'great' again. It matters not that it's all based in so much nonsense, a fabrication, it gives you something to have faith in. With faith comes belief, and nothing's quite like belief for blinding us to reality.

I guess it's way more complex than that, but it looks like a culture and society that was waiting for trump to come along and continue the fantasies for people who can't see through them, and for the minority who, like him, can take advantage of them.
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Well said. You could--for all the world--be setting out events in Germany, from around 1928 - 1945. We really never do learn from history.
 
Delaney said:
That’s a fair discussion but again I think those who hate him are missing the bigger picture.

How about we inverse your position by simply saying ‘we get the man we need, not the one we want’.

Trump is an awful messenger at times but he got very good results and for the people who needed it the most.

You can’t argue with results. People spend too much time focusing on the messenger.
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I don’t see it that way. How leadership is delivered is as important as what it delivers in my opinion. L

I don’t put Trump in the same grouping as Hitler (although his running mate did) but a blind eye was turned on the basis he was the person Germany needed in the 1930’s.
 
For me, my take on it (which may or not be anywhere near correct) is there are a few different groups of people with different reasons to support Trump.

1. The uninformed - there are a lot of people who don't read up on what he is actually doing or achieving and are just being told by fox 'news' the soundbites that fit the narrative they want to believe, anything that doesn't fit is branded fake - including things like the increase in GDP and stock values and lower unemployment and violent crime.
2. The people that are actually affected by Trumps policies - mostly business owners who don't want to be taxed or have to provide medical or increase pay etc
3. Religious fundamentalists - They completely ignore the fact Trump is not religious and can't even name a single bible passage and flipflops on abortion, as he is a means to an end.
4. Religious grifters - same as above, but are the ones making money off religion and driving Mercedes and wearing a Rolex whilst preaching about giving to the poor.
5. The people who want to do/say what they want - to my mind this is likely the biggest group. If you elect a leader who is well behaved, goes to church, does the dishes, doesn't swear, doesn't have affairs or hookups with porn stars, it puts an onus on the general public to do the same. To use an americanism, Trump is giving a hall-pass to everyone who wants to have affairs, not pay their taxes and flog dodgy bibles. If the leader of your country is a dirt bag, it's hard for someone to call you out for doing the same.


The idea that Trump is America first when he has done things like side with Putin over his own intelligence agency is mind-boggling. If the democratic leader employed numerous members of his family to run the government there would be outrage but for some reason it is ok for Trump!

I like it when I see interviews of people saying they support Trump as he is like them and is fighting for them. Whilst he is giving tax breaks to millionaires and crushing unions, from his multi-million $ country club, where they wouldn't even be allowed past the entrance gate.
 
You are contradicting yourself in the one paragraph!
Cabinetman said:
I disagree, I’ve watched him, he really does care about the people and America you only have to look at his policies. Tough luck for the rest of the world, including the uk. I think if he was a Narcissist he would be trying to please everyone for the kudos. But no, he knows what needs to be done for his Country and sod the rest of u
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Blackswanwood said:
Unfortunately there are deeply held religious views (on all sides) that do not concur with you on that Terry.
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You are of course quite right.

It would be difficult to get the main protagonists to agree that yesterday was Wednesday, not Sunday Tuesday or (possibly) January. It leaves a choice to be made:
  • accept the issue is unresolvable with a thoroughly unpleasant conflict every 5-15 years
  • start from the unsatisfactory status quo, not some ill defined contested view of the past
It might be naïve but I know which option gives the best probability of a good outcome - although sadly the first bullet may better summarise the likely outcome
 

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