It's about technique not kit.

[heimlaga]

I agree with custard.

I have seen a friend go from very basic amateur with power drill and stanley utility plane and a dull axe to fully competent joiner AND decent furnituremaker within a certain style of furniture. All in 1000 hours or slightly less.
He was determined and did it!

Up here people have always been jacks of all trades without the kind of formal training governed by guild regulations that was common further south. None the less the oldtimers made good quality furniture and elaborate doors and windows....as well as fishing boats and log houses and sailing ships.
They didn't aim for perfect polished surfaces and invisible joints in their furniture. Though they did a bloody good job and made the correct joints everywhere and made them strong. They made the furniture goodlooking in it's own way despite minor dents and imperfections. Painted with many thin coats of linseed oil paints and painted roses and scrolls. Mixed styles and created their own personal and very artistic style within the tradition of the parish.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I and my friends were building boats, making guitars, inlaid furniture, sideboards etc. - and decent enough stuff at school when we were 15 or 16. We had nothing like 1000s or 10,000s hours tuition.

 

[custard]

I and my friends were building boats, making guitars, inlaid furniture, sideboards etc. - and decent enough stuff at school when we were 15 or 16. We had nothing like 1000s or 10,000s hours tuition.

Unless you were a unique group of schoolboy prodigies I very much doubt it.

I suspect it's a case of rose tinted glasses, and you were actually making the same carp that everyone else made at school!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I did say "decent enough" - there were guitars played, a boat sailed (for years) and furniture that was serviceable. Just after I left a (full size) plane was built that was flown.

 

[custard]

Custard - you make a convincing case. It can be truly astonishing what amateurs, individually or in groups, can achieve when they take on a task or challenge with single-minded determination. However, in the amateur woodworking world, not everybody wants to apply such single-mindedness. The world of work can be challenging, and can demand discipline and considerable application. Not all workplaces are entirely pleasant places to be either, for all sorts of reasons. Family demands can be time-consuming, too. In that context, 'the shed' becomes a place to retreat and relax, and a place to skake off the demands of self-discipline and pressure. Just pottering can be very theraputic; the pressure of self-discipline and targets may be exactly what some people don't need more of. In that context, it can be entirely understandable if someone just wants to fiddle with tools, or use some disposable income on nice things for themselves.

Couldn't agree more. How someone chooses to spend their free time and money is absolutely their choice.

I'm only concerned with a subset of this forum, those people who want to make serious pieces of solid wood, rectilinear furniture.

And the point I'm trying to get across is that it's perfectly possible to make items like the Shaker Side Table I linked to, and furthermore make them to a very, very high standard. You don't need much beyond a shed, a bench, a modest set of hand tools...and about 1000 hours of diligent application.

But if that is what you're really trying to achieve (and I'll say again, maybe you're pursuing something else entirely, which is absolutely your prerogative), then forget about agonising over bevel up versus bevel down, or fretting about what cheap piece of Chinese tat machinery to buy next, or getting sidetracked by forays into pyrography, or scheming how to avoid manually cutting a dovetail or tenon with a Leigh Jig or a Festool Domino, or fretting if you should be using Japanese chisels, or wasting time on ramped shooting boards, or spending endless Sundays at boot sales, or dreaming about the "ultimate" bench design, or any of the million other traps to snare and divert the prospective furniture maker. Because none of these things will progress you one single inch towards becoming a furniture maker.

 

[custard]

I've been an artist my whole life

I always get suspicious when someone describes themselves as an artist. I take the traditional British view that artist, like hero or genius, is not a description you are entitled to attach to yourself. It's actually a judgement that is for others to make.

So why not post a link to your work?

 

[Jelly]

I'm inclined to agree with the view that practice, self limitation and defined goals allow a complete beginner to make rather attractive furniture in a reasonable time scale, I would only say that if anything custard's 1000 hours accounts little for variations in aptitude and learning styles... I suspect that It's more like a broad spread between 400 and 2000 hours to the point where someone can produce a small, uncomplicated piece to a high standard, depending how well the Individual takes to the basic skills.

I'm inclined to think that the biggest improvements I've made in my skills have been whilst perched on the edge of the bench smoking my pipe, as those are the moments when with something fresh in my mind I've either figured out a more "elegant", less time consuming solution to a task I do frequently, or decided that OK was not good enough and started over on a component. You don't get those moments if you don't commit to doing something for the long haul.

As regards wood machining, I fear that the woodworking public has had a protracted assault of people (largely american) selling them the need for unnecessary gear... If I had a penny for each time I met a fellow hobbyist who was convinced that they couldn't rip a length of wood without a tablesaw or crosscut a board without a mitresaw, I'd probably have enough to buy a nice spindle moulder on Ebay (after all one only needs 99p if it's rusty enough).

This conversation, and ones like it are the antidote to that long process of people being fooled that they *Need* more tools... If the wider woodworking public still want them fair enough, but at least they're well informed as to why they're buying them, and that they're not really a shortcut but a different set of skills to learn.

I've been an artist my whole life

I always get suspicious when someone describes themselves as an artist. I take the traditional British view that artist, like hero or genius, is not a description you are entitled to attach to yourself. It's actually a judgement that is for others to make.

So why not post a link to your work?

Do use scary sharp or oilstones for that Tongue

I kind of understand what you mean though, I have a friend who studied at St. Martens and the RCA, who has sold a number of Oil on Canvas Paintings for 5 figure sums... He abhors being called an artist, as he can't support himself full time in the manner he would prefer (via painting and sculpture), he still puts his skills to use daily running a small business doing digital art, web design and industrial design and occasionally working as a nursery nurse when work is *very* slack.

 

[heimlaga]

As regards wood machining, I fear that the woodworking public has had a protracted assault of people (largely american) selling them the need for unnecessary gear... If I had a penny for each time I met a fellow hobbyist who was convinced that they couldn't rip a length of wood without a tablesaw or crosscut a board without a mitresaw, I'd probably have enough to buy a nice spindle moulder on Ebay (after all one only needs 99p if it's rusty enough).

I agree. People focus too much on gadgets....... machines are great but I rather spend my money on a few good quality machines with great enough capacity for the job than a multitude of not so good gadgets.
I think theeese not very functional gadgets actually make people believe that they are unable to learn...... then they try to cure the that by buying even more gadgets.


Custard's 1000 hours is certainly just an example. I think the spectrum goes from 600 to 1600.....and a few people never learn.....

 

[MIGNAL]

Perhaps he is an artist. As in the job title. No different to someone calling themselves a joiner or a carpenter.

 

[davin]

Perhaps he is an artist. As in the job title. No different to someone calling themselves a joiner or a carpenter.

Totally agree. Who are others to judge.

 

[shed9]

I've been an artist my whole life

I always get suspicious when someone describes themselves as an artist. I take the traditional British view that artist, like hero or genius, is not a description you are entitled to attach to yourself. It's actually a judgement that is for others to make.

So why not post a link to your work?

On the contrary, artists always get suspicious when people feel they get to judge whether or not they are an artist based on their own set of requirements.

 

[Jelly]

I've been an artist my whole life

I always get suspicious when someone describes themselves as an artist. I take the traditional British view that artist, like hero or genius, is not a description you are entitled to attach to yourself. It's actually a judgement that is for others to make.

So why not post a link to your work?

On the contrary, artists always get suspicious when people feel they get to judge whether or not they are an artist based on their own set of requirements.

I think after artists and art critics colluded in awarding the turner prize to a succession of weird, not particularly inspired or (crucially) emotive pieces they lost the right to define what art is to the general public...

 

[Giff]

Yes but can you polish it ?

 

[Rhyolith]

I agree. People focus too much on gadgets....... machines are great but I rather spend my money on a few good quality machines with great enough capacity for the job than a multitude of not so good gadgets. I think theeese not very functional gadgets actually make people believe that they are unable to learn...... then they try to cure the that by buying even more gadgets.

So true. I think useless equipment has a lot to answer for.

 

[shed9]

I think after artists and art critics colluded in awarding the turner prize to a succession of weird, not particularly inspired or (crucially) emotive pieces they lost the right to define what art is to the general public...

One acclaimed art prize awarded to recipients of which you don't approve does not remove the right of all artists to call themselves just that?

 

[Rhyolith]

Is it even possible to define "an artist"?

 

[blackrodd]

Is it even possible to define "an artist"?

There are plenty of artists around, but very few GOOD Artists.
Rodders

 

[Rhyolith]

Whats the difference between "good" and "average"? Thats subjective with most things, but in art its to a totally new level. Its a question of whether you consider something "art" and then whether you like it, this makes a "good artist" just someone who produces work you like... so in reality there is no such thing as "bad art" or "good art", just opinions. Do you consider an opinion as reality?

 

[Woodmonkey]

Is it even possible to define "an artist"?

Yes of course, " one who creates art". The tricky part is defining what is art....

 

[Jelly]

I think after artists and art critics colluded in awarding the turner prize to a succession of weird, not particularly inspired or (crucially) emotive pieces they lost the right to define what art is to the general public...

One acclaimed art prize awarded to recipients of which you don't approve does not remove the right of all artists to call themselves just that?

art — [mass noun] the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

Underlining is mine...

The point being, that to be an artist one must create art... and it's a widely held public perception that the modern art fraternity during the YBA era really lost touch with what is held to be art, not only by the 'man on the street' but by the wider art world outside that particular clique.

Much reputational damage was done to the good name of "art" and "artists" in the UK by the over exuberance of a few influential people.

I have only fleeting connections with the art world, through attending the parties and gatherings of friends who are artists, designers, architects, historians and dealers, their opinions are quite varied on what to be an artist means (such philosophical musings are apt to come round time and again after the imbibing of a few too many 'refreshing beverages'), indeed several feel that it's defined by their ability to earn by producing art, others on that most ephemeral of things the judgement of others.

We may not agree on this any more of than they do, but I hold to the point that a piece of art should inspire emotion in the beholder of the piece, and I'd stand by my view that the work of the YBA group of artists fell short of this and damingingly so...