It's about technique not kit.

[lurker]

What he is saying (I think) and I have learned the expensive way, is that fancy tools are no subsitute for at least some skills and awareness of technique.

For instance
How many times have learners here been pointed towards £300 planes that, it is true,works out of box.
But you still have the learning curve to keep them there.
Better a second hand plane at less than a tenth of the cost and learn the maintainance up front.
Even then people are put off with the implication of dark arts in fettling a plane into a user.
I have bought some real tat for bits but have rarely seen anything so bad I can't get it up and running in less than an hour. Some folks here spend that long mucking around with the blade.

 

[Benchwayze]

But would you put your fruit in it?

Probably Biter, but then I don't eat fruit I don't need to peel! :lol:

 

[Benchwayze]

Up to a point, Jacob, I agree with you. But only up to a point.

The world is advancing as much because of technical innovations as for any other cause. Consider where humanity was three centuries ago with regard to travel, nutrition, healthcare, scientific understanding - indeed, practically everything. Things are now better for humanity - and continue to improve, generally - because we've innovated. We now have porcelain bowls to eat our morning porridge from - much easier to keep clean and hygenic that cow-dung bowls. The very fact that I'm posting this comment on an internet forum wouldn't have been possible a couple of generations ago.


But - rejecting innovation out of hand on the grounds that the old ways are always better? That way lies stagnation.

Yes Cheshire, we might be better fed, but we are, generally speaking, more obese now than ever! May I direct you to a line in my signature; regarding food? :lol:


Cheers and a Good New Year. ! J

 

[Jacob]

I think the cow dung bowls are for ornamant only, or light dry goods (crisps?).
Not suitable for porridge - just in case any body is experimenting!

 

[monkeybiter]

Well I've just been in my indoor workshop, made a few items but no WIP you'll be pleased to hear :wink:

I think the interesting point is that the designed bowl, i.e. the dung one, largely mimics the naturally occurring non-designed gourd. Obviously this is true for much if not all design/engineering as we respond to our world as our inspiration, whether naturally occurring or otherwise existing objects/ideas.

 

[toolsntat]

Great example here of the basic kit and some well practiced techniques =D>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA

Andy

 

[John15]

Very skillful but he will have to make sure he still has ten toes when he's finished.

John

 

[Cheshirechappie]

What he is saying (I think) and I have learned the expensive way, is that fancy tools are no subsitute for at least some skills and awareness of technique.

Who has suggested that they are?

 

[monkeybiter]

Advertisers.

 

[davin]

Can you polish it?

 

[Sir Percy]

Looks a bit unfinished - but maybe you can't polish...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Advertisers.

Really? Can anybody post any examples of an advertisment for a tool that suggests that buying it will mean you don't have to develop any skill? Indeed, some of the premium hand-tool makers go out of their way to instruct people how to use the tools they sell. That's hardly disregarding technique, is it?

Advertisments are there to draw people's attention to the fact that the product exists. They're hardly going to say, "Our tool is actually pretty average, and you don't really need one, and we really don't care whether you buy one or not" are they? Given the way we're all bombarded with adverts for just about everything, we're savvy enough to understand what advertising is, aren't we?

 

[iNewbie]

Gourd lord not this old ' this tool make me better ' sh*te again. 2016 and nothing changes, its tool much too bear....

 

[RogerP]

Advertisers.

Really? Can anybody post any examples of an advertisment for a tool that suggests that buying it will mean you don't have to develop any skill? ..........

Perhaps not but there are certainly those that promise you will need considerably less or very little skill compared to doing he job by hand. Tool sharpening (Tormek) and Joint cutting (Trend, Leigh etc) are two types that come to mind and there are many more devices designed to de-skill jobs.

 

[Rhyolith]

The cow dung bowl is cool, however I imagine you don't need particularly strong tools to manipulate dung. Wood or metal I think good tools make a huge difference as those are more resistant materials; for example the time it takes to drill through an RSJs with a cheap HSS bits relative to good ones, not to mention how much smoother the hole is with the quality bit.

I don't consider myself particularly high up in terms of woodworking skill, but I do know the basics of how to use most tools. For me I often find a good tool can close the gap in work speed and end result quality with my fellow craftsman, so its defiantly worth getting the good stuff. The problem is with modern consumer tools paying more usually just means more pointless gimmicky functions rather than better quality or properly useful features; tools are made to have as many advertise-able features as possible rather than being genuinely useful and many buyers get duped by this (including myself).

In my opinion, tools are more important then technique if you ignore the extreme ends of the spectrum (people with no training at all or useless tools). However this probably changes from person to person, some I know can get by with what others deem as the most appalling tools; suppose its what your used to over anything else.

Advertisers.

Really? Can anybody post any examples of an advertisment for a tool that suggests that buying it will mean you don't have to develop any skill? ..........

Perhaps not but there are certainly those that promise you will need considerably less or very little skill compared to doing he job by hand. Tool sharpening (Tormek) and Joint cutting (Trend, Leigh etc) are two types that come to mind and there are many more devices designed to de-skill jobs.

This is defiantly a common thing nowadays, particularly with woodwork being a popular pastime for people who have money but minimal training; Tormeks are a good example. The key thing is its less skill required, not non (is it actually possible to have no skill at all?).

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Advertisers.

Really? Can anybody post any examples of an advertisment for a tool that suggests that buying it will mean you don't have to develop any skill? ..........

Perhaps not but there are certainly those that promise you will need considerably less or very little skill compared to doing he job by hand. Tool sharpening (Tormek) and Joint cutting (Trend, Leigh etc) are two types that come to mind and there are many more devices designed to de-skill jobs.

Not really telling any lies, though, are they? The Tormek does grind tools, and there's nothing written into law that dovetail joints have to be made with a dovetail saw and chisels. Trend and Leigh innovated; remains to be seen whether their jig-based techniques last as long as dovetail saw and chisel (I rather suspect not), but it's just another way of making joints in wood after all. They probably made similar arguments when Bailey style planes were introduced, competing with the established woodies.

No - what all this is really about is Jacob's preferences. Jacob likes certain tools and techniques. Fine, nothing wrong with that. However, whilst most of us are broad-minded enough to accept that other people might prefer different tools and techniques than our own, Jacob thinks that preferences other than his are 'wrong'. Hence his jibes at 'tool polishers' and 'new sharpeners'.

Still, there is one good thing to come out of yet another pointless argument - the mental image of Jacob pedalling around Derbyshire on his bike, a bucket on each handlebar, in search of cow-pats. Then pedalling home with full buckets, tipping the contents onto the kitchen table, mixing it with a bit of straw and wood-shavings and moulding it into decorated bowl shapes. Then turning to Mrs B and saying, "'Ere, luv, bung these in the oven and bake 'em at wood mark 12 for a couple of hours while I grind the oats for the porridge."

How about a New Year resolution, Jacob? Lighten up a bit and accept that different people have different ways of doing things. After all, you can say, "Here's how I sharpen freehand", but if somebody still prefers using a honing jig somewhere it's hardly going to kill you, is it?

 

[Rhyolith]

Not really telling any lies, though, are they? The Tormek does grind tools, and there's nothing written into law that dovetail joints have to be made with a dovetail saw and chisels. Trend and Leigh innovated; remains to be seen whether their jig-based techniques last as long as dovetail saw and chisel (I rather suspect not), but it's just another way of making joints in wood after all. They probably made similar arguments when Bailey style planes were introduced, competing with the established woodies.

Did I say they lie? I missed anyone else saying that also. I was only making the point that tools designed to make jobs easier (and thus reducing the skill needed to perform the tasks) exist and are advertised as doing so (why the hell wouldn't they). Its a question of whether its worth paying for these gizmos and that has to be dealt with on a case by case basis I would have thought. I totally get your point with the baileys, why not use something if it does the job better? The only question you need to answer is: does it do the job better/faster/easier/etc?

No - what all this is really about is Jacob's preferences. Jacob likes certain tools and techniques. Fine, nothing wrong with that. However, whilst most of us are broad-minded enough to accept that other people might prefer different tools and techniques than our own, Jacob thinks that preferences other than his are 'wrong'. Hence his jibes at 'tool polishers' and 'new sharpeners'........................................................
......................................How about a New Year resolution, Jacob? Lighten up a bit and accept that different people have different ways of doing things. After all, you can say, "Here's how I sharpen freehand", but if somebody still prefers using a honing jig somewhere it's hardly going to kill you, is it?

I don't remember Jacob writing anything strongly suggesting that his was the only opinion that matters... and besides you kind of have to push your opinion to get heard in debates so its wise give some generous slack.

Still, there is one good thing to come out of yet another pointless argument

Is that not kind of the point of forums? God knows we might even learn something we don't expect to; I certainly do every time I get involved with these pointless arguments

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Stick around for about four years and read Jacob's posts, Rhyolith. Then you'll see why I wrote my post in the tone I did! Jacob and I have been sparring for a fair chunk of that four years - and others for longer than that! It's all good fun! :lol:

 

[Rhyolith]

Stick around for about four years and read Jacob's posts, Rhyolith. Then you'll see why I wrote my post in the tone I did! Jacob and I have been sparring for a fair chunk of that four years - and others for longer than that! It's all good fun! :lol:

Haha, sorry still a UKW newbie

 

[Jacob]

......

How about a New Year resolution, Jacob? Lighten up a bit and accept that different people have different ways of doing things. After all, you can say, "Here's how I sharpen freehand", but if somebody still prefers using a honing jig somewhere it's hardly going to kill you, is it?

What has set you off on this miserable whinge - have you had a bad christmas or something? If so , I hope the new year will cheer you up!
Do you seriously think I'm suggesting that people should make everything from cow pats? I haven't tried it myself and don't intend to either. I was trying to make a point which obviously escaped you - I'd try to explain it again but I don't think you'd get it