Invoice dispute

[ale Rosewarne]

I have a issue with a client not wanting to pay final invoice for a weird job.
he now wants to get other quotes in after the fact of being quoted for 5 units at 1k per unit labour and materials (this was vocally agreed not on paper), and the job being supplied and fulfilled.

The job spec was to back engineer a CrossFit climbing frame from an image supplied.
specs where for it to have a 4.8m rope climbing height. and a round pole 5 ft of the ground for vaulting over.

I designed it for him on CAD, got the go ahead.
got a timber order up for him to pay for. 2k

then supplied a labour bill at the end for 3k

So the actual construction was 6M 9x3s with a halving joint at the top. and a round notch to to take the vaulting pole also set a 15 degrees x20

a 6 inch 1.8m round post at the top with its cheeks notched out at 15 degrees to sit in the A-Frame. x5

6x2 at 3.6 to brace the a frame x10

and 3.6m 4 inch round post screw to sit the notch

Each frame was pre-assembled and bolted then dismantled labled and resembled on the site.

My question is I think at this scale and work load is 1 k per unit unreasonable.

I can't seem to attach a image never used site before only images from a url

all I can do I supply my instagram which has a image of the said frames

https://www.instagram.com/arc_carpentry_and_design/?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==

 

[Against_The_Grain]

£1000 each for that lash-up? Daylight robbery!

 

[--Tom--]

How long did they take?

 

[ale Rosewarne]

How long did they take?

1/2 design and source materials
4 days 2 guys to fabricate
1day 2 guys assembly
1/2 day 2 guys dissemble
plus an additional 200 in timber for bracing

 

[ale Rosewarne]

£1000 each for that lash-up? Daylight robbery!What you charge

thanks for the response. if someone asked you build a 5 m high, A frame climbing rig out of 6m 9x3s what would you charge. Materials roughly 500

 

[ale Rosewarne]

How long did they take?

to put it in perspective the closest thing ff the shelf is this and its 3.6m high
Rope Climb

 

[deema]

Well, if you have invoiced and he doesn’t pay I’d take him through small claims. It will then be on him to prove that the verbal agreement didn’t occur / was different. You’ve nothing to lose, he has the risk of a CCJ. If will I’m sure be amicable resolved before it gets to court. If it does get to court it makes for an interesting day out…..you can claim for loss of earnings for the court day if you win!

It doesn’t matter what any of us think about what you charged, you and the customer were initially happy with the price and arrangement. It’s a life lesson, always follow up verbal agreements in writing.

 

[Spectric]

units at 1k per unit labour and materials (this was vocally agreed not on paper)

You have no contract only a verbal agreement that has no legal standing, how can you prove this as it will be your word against his ?

 

[Gary]

There is a contract, it’s verbal so difficult to prove. Best not give legal advice when you don’t know the law.

 

[Gary]

You have no contract only a verbal agreement that has no legal standing, how can you prove this as it will be your word against his ?

There is a contract, it’s verbal so difficult to prove. Best not give legal advice when you don’t know the law.

 

[paulrbarnard]

If the frames were delivered and used then that would be deemed as fulfilling the verbal contract. I had a similar situation years ago for a small computer I built for a company. It went to court as the company I delivered to tried to say there was no contract. The hearing took all of five minutes. The judge said to me “did you deliver the computer?” To which I said “yes”. Then he asked the company did you use it?” To which they tried to disassemble but I chipped in “They still have it” and the judge immediately dismissed the case in my favour.

If the frames were delivered and used then you should simply get your solicitor to write them a letter with a time line to pay and take them to court if they do not.

Any debates on was the price right or if it was a lash up are irrelevant if they fulfilled the required use.

 

[Spectric]

There is a contract, it’s verbal so difficult to prove.

Knowing someone who added a verbal agreement to the actual main contract and lost then you can be on dodgy ground. A freind got paid in full for the contract agreed but they had verbally agreed to settle any work that was classed as extra's or additional and here he lost, they disputed any verbal agreement was made and that all the work came under the main contract which on legal advice he was told to just take the hit as the cheaper option. Always get things wrote down even if it is a family member because it saves all the hassle you are having and fall outs within a family.

My question is I think at this scale and work load is 1 k per unit unreasonable.

Had you got a written agreement then this would be irelevant as it would be an agreed price, maybe only the actual workmanship could be disputed.

 

[Lefley]

thanks for the response. if someone asked you build a 5 m high, A frame climbing rig out of 6m 9x3s what would you charge. Materials roughly 500

I'd charge the 1/2 day to source, 2 days to build and assemble , 1/2 day take down, 500 charge for my zoom boom.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Knowing someone who added a verbal agreement to the actual main contract and lost then you can be on dodgy ground. A freind got paid in full for the contract agreed but they had verbally agreed to settle any work that was classed as extra's or additional and here he lost, they disputed any verbal agreement was made and that all the work came under the main contract which on legal advice he was told to just take the hit as the cheaper option. Always get things wrote down even if it is a family member because it saves all the hassle you are having and fall outs within a family.



Had you got a written agreement then this would be irelevant as it would be an agreed price, maybe only the actual workmanship could be disputed.

You seem to be confusing being told not to pursue something as it’s not worth the effort and a contract not existing.

A contract can be written, oral of even implied (for instance if you get on a bus with the intention to travel and don’t pay you are in breach of contract). If an agreement includes an offer, acceptance and a consideration it is a contract.

As you point out proving the existence of an oral contract may be problematic but the Courts tend to expect people to act like adults and will consider what they have done as well as what they have said when considering these things as shown in the example given by @paulrbarnard above.

I doubt it’s of much comfort to the OP being told he should have put it in writing after the event.

 

[Sideways]

I think the photos make it pretty clear that it was accepted and put to use ....

You don't have to justify the price. It was agreed between you. Whether it was high or low, they accepted it and are now the ones at fault for failing to pay.
Next step is a formal letter to them requiring payment in full and setting a deadline.
Speak to your local citizen's advice or google 15 day letter for the gist of one.

If they ignore / dispute it, start a small claims court action as the guys have said.

 

[Bingy man]

I don’t do jobs of this size and type but all my jobs are done on a verbal quote/agreement as I’m semi retired, however I send a WhatsApp message with all relevant information and costs etc . As there is a clear conversation from both parties it’s very difficult for either party to dispute this agreement. Last year I quoted to fit new shower and repipe in the same position, fit new bath and new vanity basin unit, fit new taps in cloakroom + some work to replace the waste pipe under the floor. Quoted 4 days and cust accepted quote - I even met her at t/ station and ordered the materials etc and she paid . From the start she added extra work and I verbally explained that this was not in the original agreement ( contract) and would extend the 4 days I’d quoted. Sent her this via what’s app and she actually replied saying ok but also wanted a new basin to go with the cloakroom taps . So again she asked if I could fit new skirting in bathroom . Long storey short she added that much extra work it added 3 more days labour and of course she tried o
Paying me the original amount. It turned nasty and she was threatening me with everything she could but I reminded her of the conversations on WhatsApp between us and that this was the extent of our agreement ( contract) and I would submit this to my solicitor if she didn’t agree to pay fir the additional work and materials . I don’t have or use solicitors but she was in the wrong and she knew it . Your price is your price and that’s that regardless of it being verbal, written or otherwise. I think they look great and not your Average garden structure . I think you should always have evidence of your quotes - outside of a written contract- text messages. WhatsApp, or email etc good luck getting what your owed .

 

[Spectric]

I doubt it’s of much comfort to the OP being told he should have put it in writing after the event.

But a good lesson for the future, many of us have learnt the hard way, ignoring good advice or jumping in feet first but it is how we learn and although not so good at the time we look back and think lesson learnt. @Bingy man has the idea, evidence of communication that cannot be disputed.

 

[ale Rosewarne]

I'd charge the 1/2 day to source, 2 days to build and assemble , 1/2 day take down, 500 charge for my zoom boom.

to clarify that's for one unit?

 

[deema]

Sideways was a day out, you issue a 14 day letter to begin with, recorded delivery. Plenty of examples online. Look up also Money claim on line, this is your pit stop for issuing a court notice. Dead easy, there is lots of explanation and guide notes, you do this after the 14 day letter. Takes about 15mm a to fill in. There is a fee, think it’s around £150, but you get this back when you win / agree a settlement. Always agree to arbitration when issuing the notice and also keep up correspondence with the buyer trying to get them to pay. Always
in your email / letter after the Dear x, add on the next line Re: Without prejudice and then on the next line detail a solution, ie please pay me say in instalments if you don’t have the money right now over the next three months. Keep it very nice and courteous. If they swear at yoi or shout, pop it in the letter that you’d appreciate it if they didn’t swear etc as you are inky trying to find an amicable solution with them. If they don’t reply, don’t sweat. The Magistrate loves this stuff, if they don’t reply or try to find an amicable solution it all goes against them.


https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

[deema]

Just remember, if you issue the court notice the worst that can happen is you lose your £150 court fee you won’t get a court order against you. If they lose they get a CCJ against their name, that really screws up your life! Hence the other side will usually see sense and come to the party and settle.