Invasion of US Capitol building

[mikej460]

This a bit different - one side thinks they're going to expose fraud (with some refuse in the movement who think they're just going to create chaos) in an election and be heroes. The other one had a nationwide event where they targeted jews. Fortunately, there's no real ambition behind the former, it's just throwing a tantrum and wanting to win without understanding how many idiots are out there who will really take it literally.

I'm a bit biased about nazi apologists. There was one living down the road from my grandparents. He couldn't control himself and not peddle filth trying to tell everyone that the issue in germany was a food shortage. When a neighbor wouldn't sell her farm to him, he burned her house down. At one point when my dad was hunting with his two brothers "toobey" walked up to the fence line with an axe handle and told them he'd beat them if they got close to his property and he was just warning him (no such thing would've happened - I'm a computer operating geek, but my dad and his brothers are bad dudes and they were carrying rifles on top of that, but the old nazi was nuts).

WE lived ten miles from that farm. Wouldn't you guess toobey ended up across the road from where my parents are, managed to make a mate out of an old widow and eventually steal her house from her. He held a gun to her head and said if she left him he'd kill her. She fled and left the house to him, anyway, not that it's a real win to get away but give up your home. One of the few people I've ever said out loud "we'd be better off if someone would've offed him instead of everyone running from him". Every time I hear about wwII being a misunderstanding from some older german on TV (and all of the talk about how they followed all of the convention rules and knew nothing about what was going on in the country), I think "I wonder if you're the most naive guy in the world, or if you're related to toobey".

I don't know if toobey is still alive. I hope he isn't. I rarely say something like that, but that guy and the average person I've heard tell me the election was stolen aren't similar.

My point is that it was one man supported by a bunch of right wing fanatics that convinced more than one nation to do a lot of evil stuff. I suspect a lot of Germans (and others, including our own leaders) knew or strongly suspected what was going on much like many of the ordinary (non-fanatical) folk and fellow GOP senators who still think Trump won but will eventually deny ever suspecting anything as they slowly drift away. It will be very interesting how the FBI and IRS investigations pan out now the corporate rats are leaving the sinking ship.

 

[D_W]

Did he come out a couple of days later and say violence, looting, etc are unacceptable once he grew up a tiny bit? I get what you're saying, that you can create an influential movement and then some people will practice verisimilitude, especially if they think a little something might be in it for them.

I'm sure on the fringe, there are people like that in the "election was stolen" movement. Most of the folks in it are regular day to day people who either believe in low probability events or don't understand probability. The bulk of that group will wise up soon.

I really wonder if many of the reps or senators believe that or if they think it's in their political best interest. It's easier to get dopey reps in in numbers (as in house of representatives, not republicans - there are real ****s at the far end of each aisle, and they tend to be the noisiest and saying stupid things doesn't register with them...as to how stupid of things they're saying.

Senators, there's a few loonies, but it seems like the intelligence level there is a little bit better.

I can tell you the sentiment here in general is that nobody has tolerance for this continuing. Almost entirely across the board. That won't prevent the wingnuts maybe from having some rallies, but the state guards and national guards are on alert now and the next president is due in soon and won't be unseated.

 

[Jake]

Did he come out a couple of days later and say violence, looting, etc are unacceptable once he grew up a tiny bit?

He got told by his lawyers to do that because of his liability if he did not, and was leaking to base about how he didn't believe any of it within a day.

 

[fixit45]

It is, and theres loads of topics relating to that in the different sections.
This area is called 'Off Topic' therefore its not solely about wood and metal and making stuff.

You have to admit that this subject has connotations for us all, and is what you might describe as 'HOT' currently, ergo people want to talk and discuss it.

"Off topic" seems to be a concept that a large cohort can't grasp.

It'd be lovely if the moderators had a way of making the OT forums invisible to each person who complains about off topic material being in off topic forums.

 

[Jake]

the state guards and national guards are on alert now and the next president is due in soon and won't be unseated.

I agree with that assessment - the bigger threat is an ongoing domestic terrorism campaign / insurgency.

 

[fixit45]

I have taken the time to read most of the comments and many appear to indicate that the people commenting would stand in the street and wage war against the other. it is such an emotive subject that it tends to divide people rather than provide the opportunity for a more peaceful approach to everyone having an opinion without forcing it on another.

 

[fixit45]

"Off topic" seems to be a concept that a large cohort can't grasp.

It'd be lovely if the moderators had a way of making the OT forums invisible to each person who complains about off topic material being in off topic forums.

I do understand as one of the cohorts. I am in no way involved with either side nor do I support one or the other. But off topic does not to me seem like the correct place to vent your anger directed to another. Or perhaps it should be renamed POLITICS & RELIGION.

 

[rafezetter]

DW if you are really of the viewpoint that the 2nd ammendment is absolutely fine and that the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents in my lifetime is a "ZZZZ" then I'm of the view that you say after that isn't worth the paper I wipe my arse with. We're done here I think.

 

[rafezetter]

The word justice and social equality don't mean the same thing. When someone talks about social equality, they usually mean equality of outcome, not opportunity or regulation.

I see now that you're attempting to equate the entirety of the united states to a minority of people and very recent history (perhaps even the last week or two). Not interested. We have the same constitution for over a couple of hundred years It's not going anywhere, and this movement is over soon once Trump is out of office and there isn't any real platform for him to agitate.

We'll be back to the regular news seesaw (which is people will be complaining that joe biden will make us broke with social spending and higher taxes), vs the turn that it's on right now (all of the big corporations are getting tax breaks, we're going to burn up in the environment and go broke).

"liberty and justice for all" means exactly what I said it did, not my fault you don't get it, and that modern america has *******ized it to suit "thier version" of what they think it means.

You've been living your entire life in the USA yet clearly don't even understand the precepts the constitution was based on, while screaming stuff is "against your consitutional rights" - remarkable, no wonder the American education system gets such a bad rap.

 

[rafezetter]

I have taken the time to read most of the comments and many appear to indicate that the people commenting would stand in the street and wage war against the other. it is such an emotive subject that it tends to divide people rather than provide the opportunity for a more peaceful approach to everyone having an opinion without forcing it on another.

I wouldn't wage war on anyone with an opposing view, AS LONG AS it doesn't involve putting others into indentured servitude, aka "work or educational poverty" or involve innocent people AND CHILDREN being gunned down in schools and cinema's - however once your position either openly advocates the former, or advocates by omission of opposition, THEN I'll come for you, with everything I have - because you are part of the problem, and standing in my way to remove these threats from everyday innocent, hardworking citizens.

If you do not think this is worthy of someones time, then you are also part of the problem.

I'm not a SJW - I'm a "stop being an a-hole, using the corpses of innocent people as a ladder to success" warrior - big difference.

DW - I'm a nobody, with a small voice - I fully understand that, but I also know from bitter personal experience what is right, from what is wrong, and my moral compass rings true REGARDLESS of my personal circumstance, danger to life or financial impact (as I've mentioned and proven beyond doubt elsewhere on the forum) unlike a sickeningly large portion of humanity who's moral compass only seems to work while it's either in thier favor, or they lose nothing by following it, we call them "champagne liberals" in the UK - people who rarely, if ever, put thier money where thier mouth is, lipservice at it's worst.

I'm certain by your reaction to my post on the second ammendment and the deaths of innocents caused by it, that you cannot say the same, and therefore I can safely state you've never opposed it. There are those that would be of the opinion that if you do not oppose a thing, you are are advocating it, thus what damage that "thing" causes, you are tainted with some of that blame and burden. When it comes to the deaths of innocents in streets and schools, you can't sit on the sidelines, lest one day the bullet comes for one of your own.

I don't condone HOW those protestors did what they did, or the reason - but you can't complain because they acted in a way that's written into your own declaration of independence (go and read it again you might learn something), and a similar enactment under a similar guise was how your country was born.

 

[Jake]

I have taken the time to read most of the comments and many appear to indicate that the people commenting would stand in the street and wage war against the other. it is such an emotive subject that it tends to divide people rather than provide the opportunity for a more peaceful approach to everyone having an opinion without forcing it on another.

You don't seem to like debate.

I don't think most people take it personally even if it gets a bit emotive and one-to-one. Maybe excepting the few with massive chips on their shoulders, but they seem to get their kicks out of it in their own way.

 

[dzj]

So Trump = Hitler?

At least Godwin's Law is alive and well.

 

[D_W]

DW if you are really of the viewpoint that the 2nd ammendment is absolutely fine and that the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents in my lifetime is a "ZZZZ" then I'm of the view that you say after that isn't worth the paper I wipe my buttocks with. We're done here I think.

We care about outside opinions about the second amendment about as much as you care about americans constantly asking why people give money to the royal family (which makes absolutely no sense to 99% of americans). It's in the constitution, the supreme court has weighed in on it and if someone wants to do something about it, we have a legal process to do that (to ratify a following amendment that nullifies a prior). Other than that, people wanting to work around the legal system or take shortcuts sounds similar to me to trying to find legal ways to overturn a just election.

It comes up so often on Australian and English forums that it causes me to nod off. Unfortunately, that seems to drive overly emotional people who think their opinion has more weight than someone else's (because they're more emotional) to get even more emotional. I try to avoid people like that.

(Note, I do not own any guns. I have in the past and enjoyed reloading and target shooting - hunting a bit less (who wants to sit in the cold for a week?). I sold them to buy tools. The last I heard, about 10% of gun deaths in the US aren't drug/gang related or suicides. That leaves about 6k per year that aren't drug/gang related, but that doesn't separate out from that amount homicides related to other criminal activity - the answer to that is pretty simple - don't get involved in criminal activity).

What's the final number (not related to other criminal activity)? Maybe 3000? I don't know. According to google, firearms homicides are down 40% since 1993 (nominally) at the same time that the population is up 32%. That works out to the per capita rate being less than half of 30 years ago. This wouldn't be popular to advertise on TV.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
If you're looking at causes of death and actual rational threats to personal safety, reach out and help someone who is depressed (see number 10 on the list). If you're in the US and think that you have a chance of getting involved in crossfire, then you should never ride in a car, rush down steps or walk on ice. Add a half hour of exercise and improve your diet. Encourage someone else to. I don't know anyone who has gotten shot. The lady across the road from me slipped on her steps when I was a kid, knocked herself out and died, only to be encased in an inch of ice from an ice storm later that day (her steps were hidden from the road by privacy shrubs). It was memorable because the state police took dozens of pictures and the gleaming layer of ice caused their giant crime scene camera to flash light lightning. I'm not looking to outlaw steps, but I've seen them be deadly. In 44 years (which includes rural and urban areas, including walking through unsafe areas at night), I've never seen a gun brandished (never even seen a policeman unholster a pistol in the city despite waiting at a bus stop that goes two directions - my direction, and then one that goes toward the ghetto. I have seen police get very rough tossing around bums downtown who are high or drunk and passed out - I'm guessing they get tired of doing that and already know the people).

One day while waiting for a bus, I did hear the sound of someone a half block away hitting the street after they jumped out of an apartment window. It's a sickening sound that I won't forget. There was nothing but a single line on the digital edition of our paper the next day (but you had to use the search box to find it and know exactly where it had happened), and it was only there for a short time. Can you imagine if it had been a shooting city center? It'd have been in the news for a week, giving the false sense that the shooting lasted a week while the rest of reality was ignored.

Can you imagine how much more good would be done by volunteering to care for elderly and prevent accidents and death due to neglect or unsafe living conditions? (I'll bet that's a big part of #3 and you could prevent 5 times as many deaths as otherwise non-criminal firearms homicides by finding ways to reduce accidents).

 

[kwigly]

I'm like a fish, rising to the bait.....
rafezetter's line of reasoning on guns would also have us banning the private ownership of cars, because of their maiming and killing of "innocent people AND CHILDREN", and their "threat to everyday innocent, hardworking citizens".
...also alcohol,
...maybe knives,
...definitely ban protest marches, (also attending football matches)
...perhaps just get rid of all free choice, to prevent the threat of mayhem from "fringe" elements and from ordinary people's bad choices ?

Despite the risks, I prefer the idea of free choice, (within a framework of laws so that law breakers can be prosecuted), and the freedom to protest without censorship if I think laws are not being enforced, (or if I think laws need to be added/changed).
While the media representation of American life has aspects that seem obnoxious to me, the few days I've spent in that country have been very pleasant, and I don't have a vote there to object to their free choices.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

OK guys - I would like to waive the white flag: you're right and I am wrong. Trump = bad.

How far does this go? Is every single thing he complained about over the last 4 years also nonsense? There was never any illegal fbi investigation in 2016? Hilliary server was never an issue? Strock and Comey, the Awen brothers (remember them?), the entire 4 year collusion of the state against the White House, illegal immigrants were never free to enter and vote, and on and on - Russian collusion and vote rigging, Russian hacking, for that matter? Hang on, I'm mixing my delusions - everything Russian is democrat proven. Sorry - it's so hard to keep track of it all.

Apart from the obviously real evil Russian hackers, has Trump and half the USA spent the last 4 years in delusional lala land? Is everything false?

 

[D_W]

OK guys - I would like to waive the white flag: you're right and I am wrong. Trump = bad.

How far does this go? Is every single thing he complained about over the last 4 years also nonsense? There was never any illegal fbi investigation in 2016? Hilliary server was never an issue? Strock and Comey, the Awen brothers (remember them?), the entire 4 year collusion of the state against the White House, illegal immigrants were never free to enter and vote, and on and on - Russian collusion and vote rigging, Russian hacking, for that matter? Hang on, I'm mixing my delusions - everything Russian is democrat proven. Sorry - it's so hard to keep track of it all.

Apart from the obviously real evil Russian hackers, has Trump and half the USA spent the last 4 years in delusional lala land? Is everything false?

life at the front door here is pretty good, as are actual relations from person to person. My neighborhood is a delight, and we're half and half politically, perhaps (I have no idea how many people who are independent like me - it allows me to stay out of arguments, but on top of that, I feel no need to tell everyone in the neighborhood. I couldn't find a good "get out the don't vote" for other abstainers. Maybe I should've started a non-profit extolling the virtues of the intentional no-vote).

I predict in a couple of weeks, most of the rational world won't hear much more about trump, but MSNBC will have stories that they have to walk back (or won't), and Fox News will have people obsessed with Hunter Biden and the Ukraine again. I won't turn any of it on. You should see just how pleasant actual reality/life on the ground is here without being told it's not.

 

[Jake]

OK guys - I would like to waive the white flag: you're right and I am wrong. Trump = bad.

How far does this go? Is every single thing he complained about over the last 4 years also nonsense? There was never any illegal fbi investigation in 2016? Hilliary server was never an issue? Strock and Comey, the Awen brothers (remember them?), the entire 4 year collusion of the state against the White House, illegal immigrants were never free to enter and vote, and on and on - Russian collusion and vote rigging, Russian hacking, for that matter? Hang on, I'm mixing my delusions - everything Russian is democrat proven. Sorry - it's so hard to keep track of it all.

Apart from the obviously real evil Russian hackers, has Trump and half the USA spent the last 4 years in delusional lala land? Is everything false?

Yes.

 

[Droogs]

The point Rafezetter is putting forward is that unlike a rifle which has as its main function (supposedly) it's use in hunting to put food on the table, whereas a handgun whether it be flintlock pistol, revolver or semi automatic pistol or automatic weapons such as the various types of machine guns and machine pistols are designed and manufactured with one intent and purpose, to kill or maim human beings. The items mentioned by kwigly are also manufactured without the express purpose of killing people. That is the difference. By all means have weapons available to the populace but don't try to hide their true pupose.

I am very pro hunting (not the horse and doggie kind; that's a load of upper class cowpat) and have a keen interest in handguns but would rather live with the UKs rules than those of the US even where it severely restricts my ability to own the things I would love to have. I have suffered financially due to the tight rule in the UK when they were brought in and lost a large collection but I would rather that than the events that are far too frequent in the US

 

[billw]

When a neighbor wouldn't sell her farm to him, he burned her house down.

Well, that sounds like a perfectly rational response to me

 

[billw]

I agree with that assessment - the bigger threat is an ongoing domestic terrorism campaign / insurgency.

The security services in the US have said for quite a while that the biggest threat domestically is right-wing terrorism. Cue a lot of headlines about groups of "mentally ill" white people.