Invasion of US Capitol building

[Jake]

Instaban?

 

[kwigly]

In the 2016 presidential election the was a large group on the losing side who refused to accept the vote results and ran a loud and persistent campaign of “not my president” and “the Russians stole it”. They seemed to have a fair number of people who wondered if there might be a little truth behind their claims (although not enough ardent “believers” to mount a protest march to the Capitol), so the best way to defuse the conflict was determined to be the convening of a public investigation. The Russian influence investigation lasted years, cost millions of dollars, was vilified by both sides as not sufficiently supporting their particular viewpoints/biases. After the sacrifice of a few victims, the investigation ultimately released their findings that although some people’s individual actions were unacceptable, there was insufficient evidence to say that Russian influence had any significant affect on the overall election result or that there was a conspiracy to do this.
I’d suggest the best way to defuse the current conflict over the 2020 election might be to have a similar detailed open investigation of the various claims of election vote fraud and vote counting manipulation. Investigators can say “allegations have been made, and the alligators will be found”. Some victims will be sacrificed. Both sides will rant/grumble/complain. It will cost a lot of money. But in the end, everyone will see that at least their views have been aired and given some consideration.
The large cost of a detailed investigation would be small in comparison to the cost of violent conflict. Violent conflict will certainly emerge as “the only way to be heard” if the losing sides concerns are just summarily dismissed in the courts on “insufficient evidence” or “we decline to consider this claim”, and if the voices opposing the Winner’s narrative are just censored and the claimants punished.

You’d think that Americans might be aware that not having a voice heard in political argument was a prime cause in the original American Revolution.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

You all seem to be assuming that your facts are the correct, true, and only facts. Anything that doesn't comply with your truth must be a lie. It must be nice to be that confident about everything.

Maybe I will just roll over and agree that Trump is a Nazi - it would definitely make my life easier. He almost certainly tried to start a shooting war, and is clinically insane. Problem solved. - where do I get my social credit score bonus points? Everywhere I look, facts checkers confirm just how free and fair all the elections were, so it must be true, mustn't it? Otherwise it would be a huge conspiracy involving government, the Democratic party, the Republican party, and any number of private corporations. Wow! That would be insane.

Here's hoping the lunatics haven't just taken over the asylum. Fingers crossed reality is exactly as advertised.

@kwigly agree wholeheartedly. However, it appears to me (looking in from the outside) that reconciliation, openness, fairness etc is absolutely not on the cards. I hope I'm wrong about that, too.

 

[Jacob]

You all seem to be assuming that your facts are the correct, true, and only facts. Anything that doesn't comply with your truth must be a lie. It must be nice to be that confident about everything.

Maybe I will just roll over and agree that Trump is a Nazi - it would definitely make my life easier. He almost certainly tried to start a shooting war, and is clinically insane. Problem solved. - where do I get my social credit score bonus points? Everywhere I look, facts checkers confirm just how free and fair all the elections were, so it must be true, mustn't it? Otherwise it would be a huge conspiracy involving government, the Democratic party, the Republican party, and any number of private corporations. Wow! That would be insane.

Here's hoping the lunatics haven't just taken over the asylum. Fingers crossed reality is exactly as advertised.

@kwigly agree wholeheartedly. However, it appears to me (looking in from the outside) that reconciliation, openness, fairness etc is absolutely not on the cards. I hope I'm wrong about that, too.

How do think things could have been handled better in real terms? What should have been done differently? The rumours of vote fraud were looked at and no substantial evidence was found.

 

[harryc]

You all seem to be assuming that your facts are the correct, true, and only facts. Anything that doesn't comply with your truth must be a lie. It must be nice to be that confident about everything.

Maybe I will just roll over and agree that Trump is a Nazi - it would definitely make my life easier. He almost certainly tried to start a shooting war, and is clinically insane. Problem solved. - where do I get my social credit score bonus points? Everywhere I look, facts checkers confirm just how free and fair all the elections were, so it must be true, mustn't it? Otherwise it would be a huge conspiracy involving government, the Democratic party, the Republican party, and any number of private corporations. Wow! That would be insane.

Here's hoping the lunatics haven't just taken over the asylum. Fingers crossed reality is exactly as advertised.

@kwigly agree wholeheartedly. However, it appears to me (looking in from the outside) that reconciliation, openness, fairness etc is absolutely not on the cards. I hope I'm wrong about that, too.

You do realise how a democracy operates don’t you?

There is rules of law which if people break they are held to account because otherwise what would stop a bigger tyrant that Trump next time going even further, because there was no consequences!

 

[Jameshow]

"Off topic" seems to be a concept that a large cohort can't grasp.

It'd be lovely if the moderators had a way of making the OT forums invisible to each person who complains about off topic material being in off topic forums.

Csn we talk about scrub planes please?!!!!

Cheers James

 

[Droogs]

no TN they are the only facts due to the ability of anyone who wishes to, to ascertain whether they are actually provably true. Rather than the wetdreams of some sociopathic nutters

 

[Droogs]

@Jameshow sure start a thread in the relevant on topic section of the forum, rather than ask in the off topic section, the way people with some common sense do apparently, though judging by the last one it will end up in the off topic bit too

 

[RobinBHM]

This may come as a shock to you, but there is a significant number of people who feel that the election was rigged, and that the legal system then failed to give them even peremptory justice, and now their ability to speak out is being removed as fast as possible. It doesn't matter that you believe they are wrong - they still believe they are being beset at every turn. By disenfranchised, I meant that they feel they have had all democratic, civil options removed, rather than just losing an election. If their vote isn't counted, and their voice isn't heard - what comes next? Soap box, ballot box, bullet box? Is that your intention?

All I see is is a gleeful Left desparately trying to encourage violence, for no purpose. Why do that? Who benefits? When was the last time that a losing candidate was impeached, because he lost?

An interesting theory that I don't yet ascribe to is that the Democrats probably did rig the election, because why else all this out and out warfare on the right? If they had won honestly, they would use the immortal words of Barack Obama: "I won, you lost; get over it". As it is, the Color Revolution process requires a disorderly transition of power, so the opposition can be reviled, silenced and made illegal.

You can't help yourself, can you?

Your posts are one logical fallacy after another.

1 there is no out and out warfare on the right

2 your "I won you lost..... is a childish strawman.

3 there are a lot of people who think the election is rigged, because the president, a man of great power has gaslighted them into believing it

4 the legal system has not failed, the simple fact is republicans have made many claims of fraud, but when asked can provide zero evidence....so it's been thrown out.

 

[Jake]

All part of the firehose of falsehood.

 

[Jameshow]

@Jameshow sure start a thread in the relevant on topic section of the forum, rather than ask in the off topic section, the way people with some common sense do apparently, though judging by the last one it will end up in the off topic bit too

Sorry I was joking!

I've enjoyed this thread with its insightful viewpoints!!

Cheers James

 

[Droogs]

sorry so was I, I was trying to be flippant about how combative the scrub thread was and people moaning about off topic stuf

 

[mikej460]

So 'Golden Dawn' isnt a brand of morning coffee then ?

I rather thought it might be Trump's bit on the side..

 

[mikej460]

And the insanity continues. Trump is now Golden Dawn, which was a tiny group of deranged silly people. This may come as a shock to you all, but virtually half of the American electorate (who actually voted), voted for Trump. Are you sure that disenfranchising half of the electorate is a good idea? Are you convinced that, if you only silence all the opposition, everything will be fine? Trump supporters are obviously misguided fools, so if we just re-educate them, we can bring them back to the fold?

"Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it”

Pol Pot believed in reduction camps, too.

Hitler convinced Germany and several other nations that his way was the right way, that was until they lost the war and people actually saw just what the Nazis did. My point is that throughout millennia people have blindly followed one man for one reason or another and often lost their lives as a result. I for one see parallels.

 

[mikej460]

Instaban?

Gloria?

 

[D_W]

Csn we talk about scrub planes please?!!!!

Cheers James

I can't believe you posted an on topic thread in the off topic forum which is like posting off topic in the on topic and certainly against the rules!!

 

[Jelly]

Gloria?

G. L. O. R. I. A.

Gloria!

I'm going to have to listen to the whole of Land now just to get a suitable Patti Smit fix, I hope you're pleased with yourself.

 

[Noel]

G. L. O. R. I. A.

Gloria!

I'm going to have to listen to the whole of Land now just to get a suitable Patti Smit fix, I hope you're pleased with yourself.

Nah, Them.

 

[Jake]

The quality of Glorias escalated rapidly

 

[D_W]

Hitler convinced Germany and several other nations that his way was the right way, that was until they lost the war and people actually saw just what the Nazis did. My point is that throughout millennia people have blindly followed one man for one reason or another and often lost their lives as a result. I for one see parallels.

This a bit different - one side thinks they're going to expose fraud (with some refuse in the movement who think they're just going to create chaos) in an election and be heroes. The other one had a nationwide event where they targeted jews. Fortunately, there's no real ambition behind the former, it's just throwing a tantrum and wanting to win without understanding how many idiots are out there who will really take it literally.

I'm a bit biased about nazi apologists. There was one living down the road from my grandparents. He couldn't control himself and not peddle filth trying to tell everyone that the issue in germany was a food shortage. When a neighbor wouldn't sell her farm to him, he burned her house down. At one point when my dad was hunting with his two brothers "toobey" walked up to the fence line with an axe handle and told them he'd beat them if they got close to his property and he was just warning him (no such thing would've happened - I'm a computer operating geek, but my dad and his brothers are bad dudes and they were carrying rifles on top of that, but the old nazi was nuts).

WE lived ten miles from that farm. Wouldn't you guess toobey ended up across the road from where my parents are, managed to make a mate out of an old widow and eventually steal her house from her. He held a gun to her head and said if she left him he'd kill her. She fled and left the house to him, anyway, not that it's a real win to get away but give up your home. One of the few people I've ever said out loud "we'd be better off if someone would've offed him instead of everyone running from him". Every time I hear about wwII being a misunderstanding from some older german on TV (and all of the talk about how they followed all of the convention rules and knew nothing about what was going on in the country), I think "I wonder if you're the most naive guy in the world, or if you're related to toobey".

I don't know if toobey is still alive. I hope he isn't. I rarely say something like that, but that guy and the average person I've heard tell me the election was stolen aren't similar.