Interesting pieces of furniture - 1

[garywayne]

When I first saw this piece I thought it was out of proportion, to tall etc. The problem is, we just see a picture. If one envisages the sort of room and decor it would fit in, and the positioning of the piece. eg, in a narrow alcove. Remember, it isn't always just the piece, it is also where it's going to live. Also, if we all liked the same designs, everything would look alike.

Food for thought perhaps.

This piece does sound expensive to me, but I'm poor. But saying that I have payed hundreds of thousands of pounds for a box made of a few cheap bricks and mortar. How about you.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, also I think it's irrelevant. What people are paying for is an original design made totally by hand by a master craftsman.

But do they?

In my experience people are generally paying for a piece of furniture - they don't give a fig how it's made!

Brad

 

[Anonymous]

In all professions, most people make a living, some make a good living and a few make exceptional livings.

 

[MikeW]

And I thought I was going to leave the price thing alone, retreat to the shop and not poke my nose into this thread...but seeing how Richard did...

I think Richard, having gave this issue some thought, is closer to the mark than anyone else rattling on about costing. I truly would like to see Shivers provide a more formal estimate. Maybe I could order one...

I find as Richard has alluded to, many or most bespoke furniture makers simply fail to account for the true costs of doing business. Which could explain why so many out right fail or struggle along.

Yes, also I think it's irrelevant. What people are paying for is an original design made totally by hand by a master craftsman.

But do they?

In my experience people are generally paying for a piece of furniture - they don't give a fig how it's made!

I think what Brad is overlooking is most customers wishing to purchase furniture at that level are buying from the basis of someone's reputation as much as the piece. These people simply expect a certain level of completion, but they are not shopping or buying based upon looking into the corners and wondering about construction per se.

There are many people who have bought JK's cabinets [which are reasonably priced btw] not because his are necessarily better than all of us out there who emulate at least the style, but because of who he is with a certain expectation as to quality.

This can be applied to Sam Maloof as well. I have a friend in Colorado who makes extremely nice Maloof style furniture. Gets no where the price, of course. If I was looking to pruchase a Maloof style chair and my income permitted it, which do you think I would choose to buy? Of course the Maloof-made chair. Why? Merely because it was he [or his shop] that made it.

Which is why he is back-logged. There are people with the money to spend $15k or more for one made by him verses the $6k-$8k my friend charges. But there is zero difference in quality.

Ah, well. Back to leaving well enough alone.

Take care, Mike

 

[Shivers]

Ok heres where i reference my prices from,

a tv cabinet for customer who's got more money than sense.
thats a 4ft wide plasma in there.

It was 8 weeks work & then 2 days install with myself & assistant(including 600 mile round trip delivery)--it's not my design thank goodness.
It was $28,000--with materials being in the $5,000 range,i used to have all the details(Bid breakdown)but lost them upon moving,the shop operated at $50 an hour,my boss was happy & the customer was happy,& boy was it a lot of work.Towards the end of the last 2 weeks i was tired of looking at it.
The thing about working off interior designer's prints is that invariably-you spend so much time making adjustments asking for details to be clarified ,that you might as well have redrawn the whole thing yourself,at the last minute i found out the plasma tv model had been changed months previously,the designer didn't think it was an important piece of info i needed,the internal frame surrounding the tv is the second i made at the last moment,speakers are behind the cloth frames(more nuttyness)& the whole thing had to have multiple holes in every cabinet for a/v wiring.


Next up is a veneered 60'" starburst tiger maple & rosewood table ---i made this for myself out of leftover veneers/wood upon closedown of my shop,It took six weeks to make --i like the table because its for me & i made it completely on the fly without a design worked out,it sort of developed as i was making it(quite an experiment & some brainstorming moments)the top is a 16 piece starburst tiger maple where i buggered up a little piece of the center so had to resort to a coverup with rosewood & ebony inlay,the edge detail is 2" thick with rosewood veneer wrapped around the curved edge,the column is coopered & turned mahogany with a taper & 2 ply veneer wrap (sapele/tiger maple), the base is solid poplar with rosewood veneer & solid ebony end caps,the whole thing holds together with a 3/4" steel pipe threaded each end that goes through the column into flange plate under the base with a large nut to tighten at the top & hold the base/column/underframe together as one unit,the top sits on the underframe,i had to make a custom 7' x 8' veneer bag/1"mdf platen to accommodate the 60"top every piece of veneer was done in the bag including the column & the base parts,the starburst was by far the most difficult thing i have ever attempted in woodworking & didn't quite come off, the mistake was pretty minor but with a starburst you can't get away with it

From a design point of view its far from perfect as basically i didn't have time to devote in the frantic rush to close down the shop,it was an image i had going around in my head for a while & i created it from thought rather than drawings--this fact i'm particulary proud of as it was pure judgement with no reference points apart from what i was holding in my head.Basically the table is completely veneered,It has no finish on it in pic(ran out of time at shop).In summary i'd say the design has a great 'thrown together' look vs a good design.Some slight changes in detail sizes would have balanced it out,& made it look more refined.Some things i did spot but was restricted by lack of materials,if i had those -it would look different.

another week for finishing will complete the damn thing.

my point here is that both of these items have a magnitude more work than those chest of drawers(which i might add he has probably made several of)which also makes me ask the question--however long did he take on the first example.


shivers.


fire away --go on crucify me --i probably deserve it anyway.

 

[MikeW]

...it's not my design thank goodness.

Probably why the picture is entitled an abomination :lol:

Tis good work on both accounts.

Aside from the fact I can probably purchase the materials for less, I think the piece is underpriced for the market I live in, depending on the mix of solid and man-made materials.

What seems to be missing is the fact that once a person or firm achieves a certain notoriety, they can simply charge more for their wares, whether they choose to do so or not.

Take care, Mike

 

[Shivers]

"Probably why the picture is entitled an abomination" yep thats my sense of humour,obviously the unit was a result of a comercial bid--whereas you have to get work into a large shop to keep the doors open & lights on(whoops am i allowed to talk about energy subjects on here.

the materials include the very expensive hafele large pocket door hardware--in the 100's i believe.& some lights & wiring.
this went into redbank newjersey next door to bon jovi.


that name you mention is what i said before --get a new yorker magazine & there are plenty of shaker knock off artists advertising to the newyork jetset.
but thats not the real world.

shivers

 

[Paul Chapman]

Neither piece appeals to me but I admire your craftsmanship, Shivers.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Sgian Dubh]

A crucifixion's not necessary Shivers. You just have a different point of view.

I simply pulled up a rough estimate based on what I could see using an estimating system I've been using and refining since the early 1980's. It took perhaps eight or ten minutes to knock out on the computer. I made a lot of assumptions about processes and skimmed over many technical questions.

I'm obviously guessing this next bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if Christian Becksvoort takes somewhere between 180 and 200 hours to make the piece-- all depending on the precise details. Based on what little I know of the man, part of his ethos appears to be to offer an 'authentic' spirit of a period coupled with craftsmanship that fits that spirit-- whatever that means, rightly or wrongly. I'm not in a position to debate or discuss that.

Whatever aura he's created around himself and his work, his clients seem to buy into it. As others have mentioned, if you want a Becksvoort, then only Christian Becksvoort can do a Becksvoort. I can't, and nor can you. Sure, I could make a piece very much like that if I chose to, and I could make it in less time than the numbers I came up with, but it wouldn't be one of Christian Becksvoort's Shaker styled pieces.

As to marking up materials which was something you questioned, the answer is that I do mark up purchased goods, and usually by between 75% and 100%. Including a mark up on bought goods depends on how you estimate. It's an integral part of the system I use, certainly because part of the reason for the mark up is that goods don't get from the supplier to the workshop for free.

The COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) account in your chart of accounts recognises the reality that buying goods has a cost, e.g., negotiating a price on the business phone from your business office, visiting a timber yard in person in your business vehicle and selecting the goods, etc.. Whilst you're buying wood, you're not making furniture and charging for it, so who's paying for your time at the timber yard? You're either doing it for free, meaning you're taking a thumping loss on every resale, or you're passing on those direct costs to your client in another form.

There are other systems that are equally valid that apply their mark ups at a different point. Sometimes the mark up is referred to as 'percentage for profit', or something like that.

As you probably don't know how I do my estimating I believe you are probably not in the ideal position to say I am wrong to mark up as I do. I could debate estimating methods if I had the time and the inclination to do so, but I'm afraid I really can't due to a genuine lack of time at my end. I do know that my method of estimating works very accurately for me, and I guess that's all I really need to know. Slainte.

 

[Anonymous]

Ohh, this is a bit like a boxing match, a few jabs thrown and then someone comes out with a big right hander, still no knock-outs yet.

Ding ding round 3, :lol:

 

[Shivers]

Well yes it's like i said i do allow for time getting materials i usually estimate hrs against this in the bid & its part of the total hrs spent,why i do this because --you will be on the phone a lot during the day & evening but why should the customer who's job you are working on that particular day have the time booked against thier job,if i put in an estimate of procurement & charge hr rates for that its more fair from my point of view.

as towards critiquing you --no thats not what i was doing --i was more curious than anything,i said earlier that i was in no position to question your methods.

yep you are dead right about estimating styles --every business is different so its horses for courses.

And yes i also agree with what you say about becksvoort's business style,i think i've said thatt in so many words on different posts but probably got minimalised in the heat of discussion.

Considering the pieces he makes --i wouldn't be dead sure to say that maybe he could make 2 of the same items together,one for customer --& other for gallery-this might explain high price,i know from experience that making 2 is quite easy once in the swing,or maybe the phones do distract his train of thought to much hence more hours,whilst in deep concentration on a piece one can usually work 3 times more productively than when you are distracted.

I dont use a spreadsheet & i know i should,been using pc's for around 9 yrs now & really should have addressed this already.


regards

shivers

 

[DomValente]

I've read all of this thread and would like to ask a question of Shivers.
Are you saying that you were making pieces like that Media unit at $28000 dollars and yet the workshop closed ?

Dom

 

[Shivers]

I've read all of this thread and would like to ask a question of Shivers.
Are you saying that you were making pieces like that Media unit at $28000 dollars and yet the workshop closed ?

Dom

no this work is several yrs after i closed the shop,--i actually found that i enjoyed commercial work more than furniture,i got involved in some huge shopfitting manufacturing/installations--very high end --legg mason -t rowe price head of usa today's ceo mcCorkindales penthouse suite at the top of the usa building in arlington virginia ect,fantastic amazing projects ---just after that monstrosity of a unit above we were fitting out cnn's studio in washington dc--if you ever see a huge circular type window thingy in the background that was my wall panelling system.
basically i cant stand furniture making as a living anymore ---but love major expensive office fitouts.

shivers.

 

[DomValente]

Oh. Just thought that if you couldn't make a profit on that piece at that price, well, I think I would,ve given up.

Dom

 

[Shivers]

Oh. Just thought that if you couldn't make a profit on that piece at that price, well, I think I would,ve given up.

Dom

I earned more money working for companies doing commercial work than i could in furniture making,i really miss my shop-making all my own jigs/owning machinery doing everything from sweeping the floor to bookwork,---but one day i realised that the customers were not as astute as i would like them to be & that it was a difficult trade to be rewarded in,i remembered all those times pulling alnighters to get a job in on time,& also had not been fishing for about 10 years,i had been in a headlong stampede to aquire a dream which when i nearly reached --i decided it wasn't for me,no doubt i will always do projects of my own,but i'm going to have a shot at european installations once i get geared up & fully organized for it.

 

[DomValente]

Ahh. Disillusionment, happened to me in another life, European customers ? Just stay away from mine

 

[Anonymous]

SD - At last,input from a professional with experience on both sides of the water.

Shivers - lets assume you knock 33% off the 200 hours. You've still got 130 hours at £45/hour. Your economics are still way off - there's £6K of labour!

it's a small chest of drawers --not a wardrobe sized one
5 plus weeks thats crazy,--thats a semi-pro trying very very hard to be a proficient cabinetmaker,

also from beeksvoort's site i didn't mention that he's in the shaker church there(nothing wrong with that)--but it has a bearing on approach.

shivers.

Shivers, I am surprised that you constantly miss the point. There are no routers used on the DTs, there is no secondary wood - even drawer bottoms are solid cheery.

Becksvoort doesn't cut corners in the way you keep suggesting. He can charge £12k because he is good enough for people to pay it and they know quality when they see it.

Why can't you just accept that such craftsmanship is rare and costs - and people are prepared to pay for it

 

[Shivers]

SD - At last,input from a professional with experience on both sides of the water.

Shivers - lets assume you knock 33% off the 200 hours. You've still got 130 hours at £45/hour. Your economics are still way off - there's £6K of labour!

it's a small chest of drawers --not a wardrobe sized one
5 plus weeks thats crazy,--thats a semi-pro trying very very hard to be a proficient cabinetmaker,

also from beeksvoort's site i didn't mention that he's in the shaker church there(nothing wrong with that)--but it has a bearing on approach.

shivers.

Shivers, I am surprised that you constantly miss the point. There are no routers used on the DTs, there is no secondary wood - even drawer bottoms are solid cherry.

Becksvoort doesn't cut corners in the way you keep suggesting. He can charge £12k because he is good enough for people to pay it and they know quality when they see it.

Why can't you just accept that such craftsmanship is rare and costs - and people are prepared to pay for it

It's probably time to kill the thread tony,if people want to pay let em,If his customers go all Warm & fuzzy because he does it all by hand great,

Sorry i don't agree with you-he's just a traditional cabinetmaker-all cherry bottoms ect adds$50 on costs.theres no more amount of work between oak or cherry,pine or any solid wood for linings/drawer runners ect.
Rare craftsmanship-as an example i'd say the waywood & savage furniture is a supreme study,becks otoh makes high end repro's--

I'm not missing the point,i realized earlier on that he uses no routers he could work faster with routers hand tool the joints & put out more products,There's just as much skill in controling a router as controling a chisel or handplane--they both need fine manipulation toproduce top work.

Im beggining to wonder if traditionalist to letter like this have had a severe blow to thier heads at some time-or perhaps a childhood trauma.
Look tony theres nothing precious about not using routers & it certainly isn't a rare skill,there are legions of amatuer/hobbiest woodworkers whom produce superb pieces of furniture & because of restrictions have no choice but to use hand tools is that rare too?. i've been in the trade since 1980 --i think i know what i'm looking at.

time for me to shutup--been an intresting thread though--thanks shivers.