Interesting pieces of furniture - 1

[Roger]

So do I actually. I'm not generally a big fan of his - but that is VERY nice indeed - beautiful piece.

 

[ike]

Shivers wrote:

I'm not saying it's tat at all

An unfortunate choice of words on my part - I didn't mean to suggest he makes tat hence amended my post.

I have Becksvoort's book. I can appreciate the Shaker style/aesthetic in the context of how it evolved through their beliefs. This particular piece isn't quite to my taste but a crappy little picture hardly sells it does it?

Ike

 

[Shivers]

Shivers wrote:

I'm not saying it's tat at all

An unfortunate choice of words on my part - I didn't mean to suggest he makes tat hence amended my post.

I have Becksvoort's book. I can appreciate the Shaker style/aesthetic in the context of how it evolved through their beliefs. This particular piece isn't quite to my taste but a crappy little picture hardly sells it does it?

Ike

I gotta stop frothing at the mouth over this thread after all it is a woodworking forum,actually that music stand is a unique design & well thought out--you can even get a foot inbetween the uprights,

Yes becksvoort is a good cabinetmaker,i always thought that was the point of being one(to be good that is).
I used to work in that enviroment when i had my own shop over there so i know exactly whats going on --the whole system is front & who's backside you kiss,thats all--good luck to him.


shiversa

 

[Anonymous]

Who would have thought a post about furniture on a woodworking forum would stir up such emotion?

Can't wait for the second piece - I already have one in mind submitted to me by a member yesterday

 

[Anonymous]

Nice to have you back, Tony!

Really enjoyed that thread - roll on the next one.

Still think it should be in Design, though!

Brad

 

[Anonymous]

Still think it should be in Design, though!

Brad

The compromise postion is here :wink:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=152418#152418

 

[Anonymous]

Just read this thread with great interest. Excellent idea Tony, cant wait for the next one.

Now for my thoughts on the piece. It has a certain something that I like, but I'm not sure what it is. I can see what I dont like. I think that it is slightly over tall. I dont like that there are 2 drawers then one, then two etc with the increasing drawer sizes. I think that the sets of two drawers would be better being shorter and more in proportion on their own.

The legs, as discussed before, dont strike me as being particularly elegant. Is this typical of the style?

The variation of grain pattern and colour dont seem strike me as particularly well thought out. I seem to remember reading how Krenov spends a lot of time selecting the right timber for the right piece, which is something that I seem to pick up on. This seems to be missing that attention to detail.

Maybe I dont like it. I'm sure that the craftmanship is first grade but that doesnt add to the asthetics from the photos.

Well after my ramblings I'm left confused.

I asked SWMBO if she would like a drawer chest for $12k, yes she said, if it's got 500 drawers!! Some people have no respect for fine craftmanship!


Rgds


Saint

 

[Jez]

i really like this guys stuff :

http://www.anthonybuzak.com/index.shtm

 

[Shivers]

Just read this thread with great interest. Excellent idea Tony, cant wait for the next one.

Now for my thoughts on the piece. It has a certain something that I like, but I'm not sure what it is. I can see what I dont like. I think that it is slightly over tall. I dont like that there are 2 drawers then one, then two etc with the increasing drawer sizes. I think that the sets of two drawers would be better being shorter and more in proportion on their own.

The legs, as discussed before, dont strike me as being particularly elegant. Is this typical of the style?

The variation of grain pattern and colour dont seem strike me as particularly well thought out. I seem to remember reading how Krenov spends a lot of time selecting the right timber for the right piece, which is something that I seem to pick up on. This seems to be missing that attention to detail.

Maybe I dont like it. I'm sure that the craftmanship is first grade but that doesnt add to the asthetics from the photos.

Well after my ramblings I'm left confused.

I asked SWMBO if she would like a drawer chest for $12k, yes she said, if it's got 500 drawers!! Some people have no respect for fine craftmanship!


Rgds


Saint

I love it -----common sense prevails.



shivers.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Having watched this for a while, I just thought I'd quickly run this piece through my estimating system. Here goes. Make of it what you will.

Timber. Cherry- ~3 ft³ at £45 a foot = 135
Secondary wood. Maple- ~2.5 ft³ at £35 a foot = 87.5
Polish. £30.
Materials total = £252.50 (excluding sundries, e.g., glue, screws, etc.)
Mark Up- 100% = £252.50
Resale to customer- £505.00

Labour. High quality work using a significant amount of hand furniture making skills, e.g., 15 hand made all solid wood dovetailed drawers complete, including slips, base, final fitting and installation of pulls @ 6 hours per drawer (90 hours). Edge joinery of planks to make up requisite widths. Hand cut dovetails at top corners of cabinet. Working of joints at either end of the base and the horizontal and vertical dividers. Fabricate frame and panel back and install into cabinet.

Other work includes initial wood preparation at 0.8 hrs. per ft³, polish prep at 0.5 hrs per ft², polish application at 1/2 her 10 ft² per coat (3 coats.)

I haven't itemised every process I identify in my estimating system for the sake of brevity here, but--

All in all, approximately 200 hours work for a skilled worker. I like to think I'm passably good at this kind of work, and I do have some experience of how to go about estimating it.

So, to finish off here's a few sums.

Approximately £500 charge to the customer for the materials.

Add in 200 hours labour at my rate, £45 = £9000

Put the two numbers together and you end up with a charge of roughly £9,500, plus VAT.

If the piece has to be delivered, there's a charge for that which varies according to distance.

As I said earlier, make of it what you will. How little or much per hour are you willing to work for? £5 an hour, £20, £30. If you're in business as a furniture designer and maker, how much is your overhead? How many hours per week do you spend on non-billable activities such as estimating, sourcing materials, doing bookkeeping, maintenance, etc., that have to paid for out of what you do actually charge for?

What sort of profit do you require from your business? How do you pay for you sick days, holidays, etc., out of your billable rate? These are all the sorts of questions a business must deal with, and a furniture making business is just that-- a business. Business doesn't care how you make money-- it only cares that you do.

I suspect most amateur woodworkers let commonsense and simple business basics fly out of the door when they look at the work and the prices successful professional charge. Slainte.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Just to take the numbers a little further, I've added the vat caculation and then converted to dollars. :lol:

9,500 become 11,162.50 when vat is added and 21,208.75 when converted to dollars at 1.9. :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[Shivers]

Having watched this for a while, I just thought I'd quickly run this piece through my estimating system. Here goes. Make of it what you will.

Timber. Cherry- ~3 ft³ at £45 a foot = 135
Secondary wood. Maple- ~2.5 ft³ at £35 a foot = 87.5
Polish. £30.
Materials total = £252.50 (excluding sundries, e.g., glue, screws, etc.)
Mark Up- 100% = £252.50
Resale to customer- £505.00

Labour. High quality work using a significant amount of hand furniture making skills, e.g., 15 hand made all solid wood dovetailed drawers complete, including slips, base, final fitting and installation of pulls @ 6 hours per drawer (90 hours). Edge joinery of planks to make up requisite widths. Hand cut dovetails at top corners of cabinet. Working of joints at either end of the base and the horizontal and vertical dividers. Fabricate frame and panel back and install into cabinet.

Other work includes initial wood preparation at 0.8 hrs. per ft³, polish prep at 0.5 hrs per ft², polish application at 1/2 her 10 ft² per coat (3 coats.)

I haven't itemised every process I identify in my estimating system for the sake of brevity here, but--

All in all, approximately 200 hours work for a skilled worker. I like to think I'm passably good at this kind of work, and I do have some experience of how to go about estimating it.

So, to finish off here's a few sums.

Approximately £500 charge to the customer for the materials.

Add in 200 hours labour at my rate, £45 = £9000

Put the two numbers together and you end up with a charge of roughly £9,500, plus VAT.

If the piece has to be delivered, there's a charge for that which varies according to distance.

As I said earlier, make of it what you will. How little or much per hour are you willing to work for? £5 an hour, £20, £30. If you're in business as a furniture designer and maker, how much is your overhead? How many hours per week do you spend on non-billable activities that have to paid for out of what do actually charge for?

What sort of profit do you require from your business? How do you pay for you sick days, holidays, etc., out of your billable rate. These are all the sorts of questions a business must deal with, and a furniture making business is just that-- a business. Business doesn't care how you make money-- it only cares that you do.

I suspect most amateur woodworkers let commonsense and simple business basics fly out of the door when they look at the work and the prices successful professional charge. Slainte.

Use routers & hand finish dovetails with chisels,since this is the bulk of the work savings are significant.

use morticing machine again hand finish,

whilst making parts produce extras towards future orders,

During intermediate times work on music stand stock,or tripod tables.

Oil finish = 4 hrs tops.

equals 20%--30% off above times.

Result--exactly the same product.


eds.

 

[Good Surname or what ?]

SD - At last,input from a professional with experience on both sides of the water.

Shivers - lets assume you knock 33% off the 200 hours. You've still got 130 hours at £45/hour. Your economics are still way off - there's £6K of labour!

 

[Shivers]

SD - At last,input from a professional with experience on both sides of the water.

Shivers - lets assume you knock 33% off the 200 hours. You've still got 130 hours at £45/hour. Your economics are still way off - there's £6K of labour!

it's a small chest of drawers --not a wardrobe sized one
5 plus weeks thats crazy,--thats a semi-pro trying very very hard to be a proficient cabinetmaker,

also from beeksvoort's site i didn't mention that he's in the shaker church there(nothing wrong with that)--but it has a bearing on approach.

shivers.

 

[spadge]

Having watched this for a while, I just thought I'd quickly run this piece through my estimating system. Here goes. Make of it what you will.

Timber. Cherry- ~3 ft³ at £45 a foot = 135
Secondary wood. Maple- ~2.5 ft³ at £35 a foot = 87.5
Polish. £30.
Materials total = £252.50 (excluding sundries, e.g., glue, screws, etc.)
Mark Up- 100% = £252.50
Resale to customer- £505.00

Labour. High quality work using a significant amount of hand furniture making skills, e.g., 15 hand made all solid wood dovetailed drawers complete, including slips, base, final fitting and installation of pulls @ 6 hours per drawer (90 hours). Edge joinery of planks to make up requisite widths. Hand cut dovetails at top corners of cabinet. Working of joints at either end of the base and the horizontal and vertical dividers. Fabricate frame and panel back and install into cabinet.

Other work includes initial wood preparation at 0.8 hrs. per ft³, polish prep at 0.5 hrs per ft², polish application at 1/2 her 10 ft² per coat (3 coats.)

I haven't itemised every process I identify in my estimating system for the sake of brevity here, but--

All in all, approximately 200 hours work for a skilled worker. I like to think I'm passably good at this kind of work, and I do have some experience of how to go about estimating it.

So, to finish off here's a few sums.

Approximately £500 charge to the customer for the materials.

Add in 200 hours labour at my rate, £45 = £9000

Put the two numbers together and you end up with a charge of roughly £9,500, plus VAT.

If the piece has to be delivered, there's a charge for that which varies according to distance.

As I said earlier, make of it what you will. How little or much per hour are you willing to work for? £5 an hour, £20, £30. If you're in business as a furniture designer and maker, how much is your overhead? How many hours per week do you spend on non-billable activities such as estimating, sourcing materials, doing bookkeeping, maintenance, etc., that have to paid for out of what you do actually charge for?

What sort of profit do you require from your business? How do you pay for you sick days, holidays, etc., out of your billable rate? These are all the sorts of questions a business must deal with, and a furniture making business is just that-- a business. Business doesn't care how you make money-- it only cares that you do.

I suspect most amateur woodworkers let commonsense and simple business basics fly out of the door when they look at the work and the prices successful professional charge. Slainte.

Hi Richard

I was going to do that estiimate from the info you gave us at college but I figured you would be along at some point.

Cheers

Grahame

 

[Good Surname or what ?]

Shivers,

So, Richard Jones (Sgian Dubh) is a a semi-pro? :roll:

Hmmm. We know something of his credentials. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to yours :wink:

 

[Shivers]

Shivers,

So, Richard Jones (Sgian Dubh) is a a semi-pro? :roll:

Hmmm. We know something of his credentials. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to yours :wink:

yep later when i have some pics at a host site to back up my credibility.

parallel scenerio,

front disc's & pad replacement at honda dealership £550
Local reliable garage-----------------------------------£275

same job warrenty not voided.

shivers

I had to add this in after reading the comment of Mr jones --i don't know anything about richard jones --so it wouldn't be right for me to comment ,what i am commenting about is the price of the chest of drawers.
The feel i get is that people on here are in awe of his craftsmanship--whereas to me it's nothing that a decent apprenticeship served cabinetmaker couldn't do just as well --& with a lot more economy
I've mentioned before that he's charging a price which is the equivilant of a new mid sized family saloon car.


as a side note if this was a piece of furniture that had expensive hardware on say costing $1000--would mr jones mark it up to$2000,i never mark up my materials as i'm not a supplier-i'm a manufacturer(raw materials)the markup is on the finished product(profit),i still earn a wage against the procurement of the materials as i log it as time against he job.
!00% markup is a retail spec- not for manufacturing.

shivers.

 

[Alf]

Richard, thanks for the run down - I'm always horribly taken aback when I see these things broken down and it's good to be reminded why I'm not ever going to be a pro!

I would say, vis-a-vis pictures, the line between okay-work and high-quality work just isn't going to show in photographs IMO. And frankly the particular one of Becksvoort's is just awful.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Alf

I would say, vis-a-vis pictures, the line between okay-work and high-quality work just isn't going to show in photographs IMO. And frankly the particular one of Becksvoort's is just awful.

Yes, also I think it's irrelevant. What people are paying for is an original design made totally by hand by a master craftsman.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Anonymous]

As the guy who unwittingly sent this thread off into a pitched battle on costings between Shivers and the world, I was interested in Richard's input. I have no argument with his logic or his figures - my problem is simply whether there are sufficient potential customers out there willing to pay this kind of money for a piece of furniture.

I hope I am wrong, but my view as a maker is that I would not be able to use this business model. Given the choice between a hand-made solid wood piece like this at £7000 and one that looked virtually identical but incorporating veneered board and machine cut joints at £2000 my experience tells me that 99.99% of even very wealthy clients would choose the latter.

Such is life, and hence that is what I make.

Brad