Inca bandsaw switch problem.

[sargo70]

Apologies for posting again about this...I posted a few days ago about the Inca 342.186 bandsaw I purchased from ebay. It runs "in theory" but there is a problem with the switch. Since last post I have had no less than 5 people look at it various machine repair people and one electrician. Nobody seems to be able to offer any kind of solution or answer to the same question I've asked repeatedly - "is there any way to retrofit or bypass the current mechanism"? So, before I take a trip to the dump with the bandsaw I though I'd give one last shout on here.

I have attached a few photos again and I think this is the correct manual https://www.toshen.com/images/inca340manual.pdf

Please! I really want not to have to chuck this out. (Thanks!)

 

[dickm]

Whatever you do, don't chuck it out! Those little Incas were lovely machines. Even if you can't find a way to replace the switch, the motor will almost certainly be some sort of flange mounted one, almost certainly a metric size of flange and therefore likely to be available somewhere reasonably easily, if possibly not cheaply.

Or, of course, put it in a parcel and send it up to Scotland!

 

[sargo70]

Thanks for your reply Dick, do you mean try and find a replacement motor? That's worth a shout....anybody have any idea what I can replace it with? It's so annoying because holding the switch in place it runs, and runs beautifully....I've cleaned it up and de rusted it and it's just so much better than the Dewalt 738 I have which is poooooor.

 

[flh801978]

As i said in your earlier posts its quite a simple problem
If by your own admission you don't know what to do with electrical its not really in peoples interests to advise you to perhaps electricute yourself.
However as you have had a so called electrician to look at it...he's not worthy of the name if he cant fix you up with a starter... The motors fine as it runs well...its just a starter needed.

If you brought it to me its a 10 minute job

Ian

 

[Fitzroy]

Sargo,

I'd say no way on the scrapping it! You'll be able to fix it or if worst comes to worst you can fit a new switch.

Looking at the diagram, remembering my abysmal french, using google translate and my knowledge of electrics you have.
- a single phase motor with over temperature protection
(sonde means probe, the diagram with the y shaped coils represents the motor, with the over temperature probe)
- a no voltage release (NVR) switch -
a lack coil voltage from google translate - this is also the coil in the photo at the bottom, this is basically a magnetic relay that the start switch energises and then stays energised closing the circuit to the motor so long as there is a power supply.
- a single start and run capacitor
can be seen on both diagrams between one coil on the motor and the live phase, connected to the yellow (jaune) wire.

The diagram does not show then internal wiring of the switch, just which terminals to connect to which bits external to the switch.

how to fix it depends on the fault.
- could be the relay not working (ie the motor runs but you have to hold the start switch)
- could be the capacitor is fried (motor may not start nor run, or may just not start ie if you crank the motor over whist holding the start switch it runs)
- could be the probe is fried (depending on how the probe is wired inside the switch depends on how this fault would reveal itself)

What are the fault symptoms?

If the fault is with the capacitor buying a new NVR switch will not help, if the fault is with the relay then you may need a new switch. etc etc.

You can eliminate the switch entirely by connecting:
- the R wire to the U wire
- the S wire to the V wire
- the W wire to the V wire
note : these connections should be made in a free standing terminal block not by jumping across the switch as you don't know what is happening inside the switch.

If you did this you could then plug in the motor and switch it on at the plug. WARNING this is far from ideal! A NRV switch with a relay works such the the switch you press has very little current going through it, the relay engages the feed to the motor and hence sees all the current. If you make the connections directly you will have the full start current through the switch in the plug socket. If I were doing this i'd flick the switch with a piece of wood not my finger and be ready toot sweet to flick it the other way!

 

[sargo70]

Thank you SOOO much for the reply.

Symptoms are/were that I would have to hold the switch in a certain sweet spot for it to fire up....It would run without the motor getting warm at all.

The switch mechanism is REALLY fiddly and after one of the techs had it open today I spent 3 hours trying to reassemble it but I just can't.

I would love to buy an NVR switch if it's possible to use one instead...they only have 6 connections I think and this seems to have 10 or so.

To be honest the complete bypass solution sounds appealing at this stage too! Is there a safe(ish) way of doing that? Maybe adding a switch between there and the plug? Thanks so so much for help thus far!

 

[sargo70]

Ian, apologies, only just saw your reply, thanks again, yeah the stock response I had was either headscratching or that if they couldn't order a spare part they wouldn't go any further. It;s not the heaviest machine but I've had it in and out of the car so many times today that I need new arms. If a switch can be added somehow any suggestions that I could take to an electrician would be very gratefully received.

 

[flh801978]

Fitzroy

I'm fairly sure that this type of switch flicks power to the start cap to spin the motor up to speed then disconnects the cap whilst it runs ... connecting the motor and cap to mains to run continuously will be dangerous for the cap and motor
As i previously advised the "sonde" needs checking for continuity ..that may be stoping the switch holding in
Ian

 

[Fitzroy]

Sorry took me ages to pen that and missed the interim response. Sounds to me like you have a bust relay, ie the internal coil is not holding the switch on when you release the start switch. Personally i'd be digging inside to understand the wiring inside the switch, and to see if there is just a loose connection to the coil or if the coil is broken.

On my Wadkin planer the machine was 3Ph 430V originally so when I fitted the inverter to single phase my feed voltage dropped to 240v and the coil was not holding the switch closed. I bought a cheap £10 ish relay off of ebay and replaced the original coil with it. Took me a bit of thinking to work out what was happening inside the switch but wasn't that difficult.

If I couldn't work out the wiring in the current switch i'd buy a new NVR switch from ebay (eg the link below) and retrofit it to the machine. You will however be giving up the thermal cut out on the motor, so you'd have to watch your motor temperature yourself and stop if it got over hot. My band saw does not have a thermal cut out anyhow!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEDU-KJD18-9- ... Sw8gVX6mFa

As Ian said I'm not advocating you do anything you are uncomfortable doing, and electricity can be a killer so treat it with a lot of respect. However, if I can see this from across the internet someone professional should easily be able to fix it.

Fitz.

 

[flh801978]

Sargo
You need to take it to an electrician who is worthy of the name
You have a diagram,a working motor..its simple if you have it in front of you and a meter...and know how to use it

 

[sargo70]

Thanks again Ian and Fitz...I will definitely go see another electrician, many, many thanks for replies. I was losing all hope after seeing the folk I saw today.

 

[Fitzroy]

Fitzroy

I'm fairly sure that this type of switch flicks power to the start cap to spin the motor up to speed then disconnects the cap whilst it runs ... connecting the motor and cap to mains to run continuously will be dangerous for the cap and motor
As i previously advised the "sonde" needs checking for continuity ..that may be stoping the switch holding in
Ian

Single phase motors can either be two capacitors (start + run) or one capacitor (start and run). All single phase motors need a capacitor to run to create a false out of phase signal. Connecting a capacitor to an ac current basically delays the AC wave by a certain phase, can't remember the details but watched loads of vid on you tube and spoke to the electrical engineers a work. If I remember correctly the larger the motor the more chance you need separate start capacitor to give the required torque, with the start capacitor disconnected once the motor is running. It looks to me that this bandsaw has just a permanent run capacitor.

http://www.remco.co.uk/products/capacitors : see the bit on run capacitors
For A.C. Use. Starting and running of single phase motors.

Fitz

 

[Fitzroy]

Sorry last point but my brain's spinning on this. To see it is the temperature cut out (sonde) is faulty and permanently open, with out having a multimeter, you could just attach a wire from a to b and try starting it up. This is probably the least risky thing you can do.

 

[sargo70]

Thanks, again, really appreciate all help....the problem now is that the switch mechanism is so hard to put back together, I'm no luddite but it's beaten me. so I'm left, essentially with 'hard wiring' or replacing the switch....I've put a call out "mybuilder.com" because all the sparks I spoke to bar one didn't even want to look at it. Sooo frustrating! I wish my electrical knowledge was better

 

[flh801978]

Fitzroy
Single phase motors don't need a cap to run
Some do do to start...not all do
Some do to start and run..not all
There's many single phase induction motors with no caps

And if any motor can be different to any other be sure that the French will make one
Ian

 

[adrspach]

Firstly congratulations to that saw you wanted it more.
Secondly I believe you can still get some original spare parts from France for those saws.
If it comes to worst please do not scrap the saw. I am sure you can get your money easily back by selling parts of it and make other users very happy. There is yahoo Inca group.

 

[John Brown]

Definitely +1 on not scrapping the saw. I have one, and they're great.
It looks like the switch is a rotary thing, does it have three positions, e.g. OFF/START/RUN ? Reason I ask is that I've read that these thing generally have a centrifrugal switch to disconnect the start cap, and I can't see how that would fit with your wiring.
Also agree that it looks like it has a permanently connected run capacitor, which suggests that it should have another cap somewhere for starting, but maybe not. My knowledge of these things is sparse.
Did find this(if I can attach it). Maybe it would help someone more knowledgable than me to help you...

By the way, looking at the photos:
I assume you've diconnected the mains in from terminal marked R and S
I assume that the blue and brown wires connected to V and W go to the terminals of the big cap mounted on the outside of the control box.

The rouge and noir wires are actually reversed in the photo relative to the schematic, but I think this would simply reverse the direction of rotation.

If it were my saw, I would get a large piece of terminal block and experiment, as someone has suggested. I think the cap is permanently in circuit, as there doesn't appear to be a way to disconnect it. I think either the relay is faulty, or the temperature probe, but without a meter you are stuffed.

 

[dickm]

Ask very nicely and maybe Myfordman of this parish will appear in a puff of burning-paxolin-scented smoke with an authoritatve answer!

 

[Myfordman]

Ask very nicely and maybe Myfordman of this parish will appear in a puff of burning-paxolin-scented smoke with an authoritatve answer!

No Chance Dick, I'm hiding behind the sofa on this one!

This should have been put directly in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing at the outset. Once "have a go merchants" have been in there, it turns into a can of worms now with too many unknowns and the usual smattering of mis information thrown in.

As a general point, very few electricians understand enough to do this sort of work. It needs a motor expert. Had to laugh at the comment about French designs - absolutely true - if there is an oddball way to do something the French will do it that way.

 

[fiddlesticks]

Hello forum members, I am new here and have enjoyed reading many contributions here.
I can't help with the electrics, but if the Inca motor works it is definitely worthwhile fixing and even spending some money on it. I have used 2 Inca bandsaws for quite a few years now in my violin making workshop here in Bristol, both the medium size 'benchtop' 342 as well as the large 3 wheel Inca 500 Expert (710 in the US).
Well set up they are beautiful and nice working machines, if not without quirks.
My Inca 342 has recently suffered a blown motor and is momentary out of action. This is the nightmare scenario with obsolete machines.
Some parts are of course available from France and Switzerland, though the high prices are now even less affordable with the recent drop of the GB Pound. That leaves the second hand market for spares, and generic new parts for 'consumables' like bearings etc. (Though the guide bearings in my Inca 500 are also obsolete, but slightly smaller diameter ones do the trick).
The OP didn't mention the motor on his saw, but I suppose it's the Leroy-Somer LS80P, 0.45KW 1000RPM, 240V. This is a direct drive motor, 80 frame FLANGE Mounted, (B14) with 4 M6 bolts fixing it to the saw body. There are also 10 larger holes spaced in a wider diameter for possibly another motor mount (though the B5 mount has 8 holes I think, but my Inca catalogue shows also Bauknecht motors used - probably in Germany & Austria?). Or possibly those 10 holes connect the belt drive wheel to the motor mount when it's underneath the saw table, though I have never seen an original one.
The suggestion to get a replacement motor intrigues me...please let me know if they are around. Though I hope the OP will get the switch issue sorted without having to resort to a replacement motor.
To make things easier for anyone else in my situation: I have talked to and emailed a few motor suppliers here in the UK. The issue seems to be that the closest replacement for the direct drive Leroy-Somer with the above specs is a 3 phase motor ! Not as easy a workaround as I hoped.
A 2 phase motor in the the correct 80 face size with the 40mm long drive shaft at 19mm diameter has 0.55KW and 1500 RPM, stop/start capacitor - possible to run as low as 1375 RPM (with a converter?) according to the seller but probably still a bit too fast for woodcutting and the vibration and noise effects. The price is in the £130 range.
I have still to try a motor rewind place for my blown motor but fear that to be quite expensive. I opened it up, and yes...several copper strands are melted together and broken. I can't even guess what caused it, the motor just stopped in the middle of a straight light cut.
Interesting to me as a non electrician is that 6 pole 3 phase motors give 1000rpm, 4 pole 2 phase motors give 1500rpm. So what is the 2 phase Leroy-Somer motor with 0.45 KW and 1000rpm ( today you can get 0.37 KW - with the small 71 frame and a 0.55 KW with the 80 frame), is it a special motor made at the time just for the Incas or were they also used for other purposes?
I hope my small collection of notes is of interest to other Inca users, good luck and happy sawing to all.
SN Bristol