High or Low: A beginner's conundrum...and other questions...

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MikeG.":g2bl6vfo said:
You're both right, of course, but talking about different tools, and different owners. But this is the internet, where the extreme position is always the one argued. If you were standing next to each other in a workshop with a pair of rusty old planes to sort out, you'd be talking about the weather within 2 minutes, and Jacob would be making a pot of tea for Pete as he put the finishing touches to his tool. They'd both work beautifully, but Pete's would look a little prettier than Jacobs. That's all. Well, other than that I'd pop by, tell them that they don't need any extra planes anyway, and ask them to show me what projects they were working on.

Mine would work better as well, don't underestimate the frog/bed lapping step.
And the tote/knob varnish is usually cracked and flaky, so unless you fancy holding some thing rougher than a pebble dashed bath tub you need to do something.

Pete
 
phil.p":qghelvfc said:
But what will you sharpen them on?





.........................................................ducks, covers head and runs for the hills :lol:

The thighs of a virgin, if I can find one round here, they are a rare breed.
 
Silly_Billy":1fmhknda said:
Ah, but would it be an American virgin from Maine or a Chinese virgin from Workshop Heaven? :)

I prefer a Welsh virgin, they aren't as course and you can get one for a pint and a bag of chips, rare as hens teeth mind, but I'm off to Llandudno next weekend so I'll see if I can scout one out.
 
Pete Maddex":1gbu3od5 said:
Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.

Pete

It takes me about 20 minutes to sort out a 4, and that includes lapping (even though jacob doesn't like that). i might have to hone a second time if the camber is too little or too much on the first go, but once more and you're with it.

If that's equivalent to LN, it's a pretty high hourly rate!

I have more hand-used equipment for a plane than most, but the things that I have are worth buying for anyone who is going to actually woodwork (which often involves making more tools, unless you're just going to make drawers and occasional tables).
 
Mike's right, the internet blows almost everything way out of proportion. Let me see if I can add a subtler perspective.

Here are the three planes that I use the most, a Record 5 1/2 with a normal thin iron (although it's one of the earlier laminated thin irons), a Lie Nielsen 5 1/2, and a Veritas bevel up jack (it may not look like a Veritas, but that's because I didn't like the original handles so made different ones). As a full time furniture maker that adds up to thousands of hours with these three planes, spread across scores of different timbers.
Planes-3.jpg


Because I work a lot with highly figured wood, which tears out as soon as look at it, it's more efficient to keep two 5 1/2 planes on the bench. One with a closely set cap iron and one with a regular setting, but for most makers you'll only need one.

Here's what I've found.

If you're working with softwoods or temperate zone hardwoods, then a properly sorted Record or Stanley will deliver a shaving, and more importantly a workpiece surface, that's indistinguishable from one produced by a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane. So if the budget's tight you'd be crazy not to look very seriously at this option. It's also worth pointing out that woodworking is a more expensive hobby than many anticipate. Even using second hand tools you can easily sink £2,000 into hand tools and workshop essentials. But if you go the premium tool route then you must be prepared to spend much more, maybe more like £5,000. And that's before you even start thinking about machinery.

So am I saying a Record or Stanley is every bit as good as a Lie Nielsen? No I'm not. Most used Stanley or Record planes can be brought back into service, but there are some that will require a lot of work to make them perform even acceptably, and there are a few that are pretty much basket cases. Buying older tools is a lottery in a way that buying a Lie Nielsen just isn't. Sure, the odds are on your side with a used Record or Stanley, but if you're unlucky and end up with one with a deeply scored sole from planing plywood edges, or a deeply pitted iron, or a badly cast frog, or a warped or cracked sole, or a cap iron that refuses to seat properly; then you're facing a great deal of remedial work that you may not have the skills or the energy to complete.

Furthermore, no matter how well tuned a Record or Stanley is, it will never feel quite as silky smooth as a Lie Nielsen. I notice this most when I've taken a rough sawn or band sawn edge and I'm planing it smooth. The efficient route is to start taking deep cuts and then progressively go finer. I've never handled a Record or Stanley that is quite as good as a Lie Nielsen, they're always that bit stiffer or sloppier to operate, more resistance on the depth of cut wheel, and more backlash too. I've invested plenty of time trying to raise their performance, but I can never quite get there. Incidentally, the Veritas bevel up plane is probably the worst of all in this respect, the Norris style adjuster means you cannot adjust depth of cut on the fly. You have to remove your right hand from the rear handle and then make a separate adjustment. It's not the end of the world, but when you're deep into a project doing this for the umpteenth time then it's an irritant that only grows.

Lots of people will argue about the thicker A2 or powdered metal irons. In my practical experience, when you're working on long grain planing of temperate zone hardwoods, it's just not that big a deal. After many years I've got into a rhythm of honing after about ten or twelve minutes of constant planing, and that's generally do-able with either a thin carbon steel iron or with a thick A2 iron. However, I've got a dedicated sharpening station just a few feet from my bench. If you have to clear away the work from your bench and get out your sharpening kit, then you might place more value on a tool that lasts more strokes before becoming unusably blunt. Furthermore, long grain and temperate zone hardwoods aren't the full scope of a plane's duties. Once you get into end grain planing, especially on really tough and abrasive stuff like Rosewood, then I find my Record irons get noticeably blunter within a minute (let's say fifty plane strokes), after a while honing at sixty second intervals becomes a bit tiresome. You can still get the job done (just look at Alan Peters, who used a Record plane on materials like this all his working life), but you'll handle end grain planing faster and more efficiently with an A2 iron.

Sticking with sharpening, in my opinion you shouldn't consider a plane with a thicker iron unless you have a power grinder or linisher. In fact I'm sceptical that a water cooled power wheel is really up to the challenge unless you're a very occasional user. To use thick irons efficiently you have to keep regrinding the primary bevel. If you don't then more and more of your woodworking time will get eaten up with marathon stints at the stone, rubbing away for many minutes instead of a few seconds. You might think an ultra coarse diamond stone changes this equation, I've tried it and I'm not convinced.

And there's another dimension related to sharpening, and that's forming a camber. I've often seen an experience craftsman use the plane of another experienced craftsman, and then remark how uncomfortable they were with the tool. In most cases it's subtle differences in the camber that is throwing them off. A beginner wouldn't notice any difference between them, but the longer you work wood the more important these tiny differences become. And with enough time at the bench I suspect you too will become obsessive about the camber on your plane irons! Furthermore, it's always a work in progress, every time you hone you're consciously or subconsciously evolving that camber.

But here's the thing, forming and maintaining the perfect camber is much, much harder on a bevel up plane than on a bevel down plane. To give one example, I suspect that a beginner taking up woodworking with a bevel up plane would likely never develop the subtle appreciation of cambers to the position where they can efficiently and accurately edge joint boards. They'll either use a planer/thicknesser to do all or most of their edge jointing for them, or they'll simply resign themselves to gappy, ugly glue lines on their jointed up tops.

In summary my advice to a beginner would be, unless you've got exceptionally deep pockets then get a second hand Record or Stanley, but be patient and look for the very best example you can find. Do this in the knowledge that you won't get a Mercedes driving experience from a Fiat, but you'll still get to where you need to go. If you're dealing with a lot of end grain, or if sharpening is a disruptive process that you need to delay, then think about an aftermarket A2 or PMV II iron. But if you go this route then also get an inexpensive grinding wheel and learn how to use it. Bevel up planes are lovely tools, but leave them for later on in your woodworking career. I've got one, but I use it almost exclusively for end grain and for shooting where cambers aren't critical.

Most important of all, whatever plane you choose, set yourself some basic planing challenges. Like bringing a rough sawn board to "six square", and perfectly edge jointing two boards. You'll need to invest forty or fifty hours in mastering these challenges, but along the way you'll learn lessons about sharpening, cambers, and tool fettling that will make you a far better woodworker in the long run.

Good luck!
 

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A piece of brass shim super glued round the end of the adjuster will remove a lot of the backlash.

Another thing to add to my list above. :wink:

Pete
 
Pete Maddex":1bk9110q said:
A piece of brass shim super glued round the end of the adjuster will remove a lot of the backlash.

I haven't tried that, but I have undertaken the giant faff of hand filing a replacement gunmetal yolk to a closer tolerance fit...better, but still not as good as a Lie Nielsen.

:(
 
General advice I got was to just get a 4 or 5 plane, get it roughly set up (plenty of guides for this online), and just get started. You learn far more far quicker and the rest you can pick up once you actually have some experience to work with.
 
I've never bothered about backlash. You need it anyway so that you can feel it engaging on the pull/push of the blade. Zero backlash is unhelpful.
If there's a lot of movement then you make sure the wheel turns easily so you can flick/spin it from one position to another.
 
novocaine":1lwmvolo said:
well this is as fun as ever.
Chlad, where are you in Cheshire, you are welcome to come and try my no. 4, 4 1/2, 5 BD planes and small cheap BU block plane, I'll even sharpen them before you come. :O

I'm in Macclesfield. Your offer is very much appreciated and it would be a pleasure. :eek:ccasion5: I can come whenever suits you best. I work out of hours so have the days free as well as 3-4 afternoons a week .
 
so we hit the first hurdle, I work normal hours so it would need to be an evening, after 7pm really (got to get the little ones down before I'm permitted time in the shop).
need to revise my comment too, it's a pair of 4's and a 5 (a record a stanley and a record with a stanley lever cap, the purists will hate me) along with a faithful (more hate) and a stanley 102 that is pretty much all the planes I've ever needed. none have had more than 10-20 minutes spent on them in the past 10 years by me. excluding the faithful they were either my fathers or my grandfathers planes and they were all users, so they are a bit knocked about but still take perfect shavings and I can still joint 2 boards or flatten a top with any of them.

don't remove the backlash from the adjuster, it's there for a reason, it means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out. It was quite a clever little design really.
 
novocaine":2zreeejp said:
......

don't remove the backlash from the adjuster, it's there for a reason, it means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out. It was quite a clever little design really.
Exactly! Also you can feel it engaging (or not) on the push or pull.
 
novocaine":3hm2hzg2 said:
...a faithful (more hate)
Not from me, best lower-cost planes going IMO! Between the three I've handled the sum total of the work they needed would fit into a lunchtime break.

novocaine":3hm2hzg2 said:
[backlash] means the mating face is the only one in contact (and it should always be on the advancing face) to stop the adjusted backing out.
I don't bother with that on planes, on spokeshaves yes but my planes (bench and block) don't lose setting if the last adjustment was backwards, even with a jar from hitting a knot.

It's common advice all right, but IME it's exactly akin to the traditional admonishment about laying planes on their side.
 
ED65":3gd1a2j3 said:
novocaine":3gd1a2j3 said:
...a faithful (more hate)
Not from me, best lower-cost planes going IMO! Between the three I've handled the sum total of the work they needed would fit into a lunchtime break.
.....
I bought a Faithful 10 on the off chance but have to say it was unusable. It was well made throughout but the parts just didn't fit together - too far out to correct. Got the money back.
It is a risk buying cheap, but then it doesn't cost a lot and it's all a learning curve!
 
ED65":2ra1kzrr said:
It's common advice all right, but IME it's exactly akin to the traditional admonishment about laying planes on their side.

It's common engineering practice to me I'm afraid rather than what woodworkers claim, same with a lead screw on a lathe or mill table, you always back out then take the backlash out so the cutting is down against the forward facing edge of the screw. I have a ropey X,Y table on the drill press (clarks finest piece of heavy weight poorly machined boat anchor, but it does it's job) it has enough backlash that you can make it jump across the square thread form of the lead screw on the Y access with a big enough drill bit.
But I guess if your cap iron is tight enough the blade shouldn't really move (and if it does, you aren't really going to notice, it's 1/2mm on the threads, not enough to stop a heavy cut still cutting and if your taking skinny little shavings it isn't likely to move even with a heavy knot).

as to laying it on it's side, yer that one was always laughed at by the old hands, Guess it's one of Jacobs "modern sharpening madness" type of things. unless you are working on a steel bench top that is. :)
 
ED65":3gmr93jd said:
Last but not least: never forget that you don't have to be able to finish-plane wood to call yourself a 'proper' woodworker! There's no rule that says the last tool to touch the surface has to be a plane. In fact it's rare to do so. Scraping and/or sanding to complete the smoothing of wood isn't just fairly common, it's the norm.

Completing the surface preparation of a furniture project in wood is about homogenizing the surface so that all parts equally accept, to the greatest extent possible, whatever finishing regimen is to follow. It usually won't do to scrape and sand mouldings, curved parts, etc. and leave the broad flat surfaces as they come from the plane. Best to scrape and sand it all to be sure, though it is often very hard to tell any difference once a finish goes on. If on a project you've just completed you CAN tell a difference, and it's a jarring one, then you've worked yourself into quite a corner. You either have to accept the results or strip the finish you just spent so much time applying, and start over.
 
Scrape non flat surfaces, burnish with shavings and the finish uptake the same as a planed surface.
 
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