Helping out a family member

[Bingy man]

For those that have seen my post on @Stigmorgan thread ( -need to escape)
I’ve been asked by a non direct family member to quote for a garden make over - in short new patio ( 20mm porcelain) new lawn ( 20sq mtrs ) re-establish the boarders and fit 8ft sleepers at the end of the patio, at the end of the lawn and down the 2 sides to create the boarders . At the rear of the garden dismantle shed and store ( to be reused later . Lay a standard patio from existing slabs that will be removed ( for the shed ) barrow 4 tons of posh gravel onto and around the shed area and the 2 boarders from the front of the house down the side into the garden . There is no access to get a machine in and he has fell out with the neighbour so no chance of removing part of fence between the 2 houses . So all materials have to be hand balled into the garden this way .
See post 2

 

[Bingy man]

Post 2
Now the main event is a patio of approx 22 sq mtrs using 20 mm porcelain slabs . The existing patio of course need to be lifted and removed ( old council slabs 3x2 . Some will be reused for a shed base as per post 1 .the rest into the skip at the front . I have told them that these are not like regular slabs that can be laid on a few inches of concrete sand with a bit of cement ( dry bed) they are very labour intensive. I’ve explained that due to the 100 mm of type 1 mot sub base +50 mm of concrete + aprox 30mm bedding adhesive + of course the 20 mm slab that I need to remove 200mm approx of soil, bricks and whatever other crud is under the existing patio. 2 ton of top soil reqd to be barrowed in from the front +5-6 tons of mot type 1 sun base and eventually 30 yards of turf . Then 24 8ft sleepers carried in from the front and bedded onto sharp sand and cement and pinned together to form the boarders and a row at the end of the patio and the new lawn once laid . Finally the patio can be laid and the existing shed rebuilt / repaired as necessary and the patio grouted and sealed if reqd .

 

[Bingy man]

Post 3
Sorry for the long thread but just need you know how much work is involved.

I’ve sourced all the materials apart from the 20mm slabs. I’ve got everything reqd for the best prices eg 1 .5 cu mtr of concrete ( pumped ) from £850 down to £520-£580 , quality new sleepers at £20 each etc , I make nothing on the mats , I’m not doing it as a business but because of the nature of the work I’m not doing it for free. There will be 2 of us with the provision for 2 extra men for 2 days each ( for digging out and barrowing) and the same with the hard core and soil etc . The rest will be done by myself and my good friend. Inc the extra days I’ve estimated 20 days ( 8 hrs ) as I don’t want to end up working for nothing. The customers( family) have been left the money by a distant relative who passed away and left them the inheritance on the condition that most of the money is invested back into the family home . So at last my ask is am I being over the top in my estimate of 20 days ( obviously) if it takes less they pay less but I’m trying to avoid running out of time and then having to ask for more money/ time . I don’t cut corners so I won’t be happy untill everything is 100%!. Don’t want to talk about the overall cost but we are Working around the £180 per day and £150 per day for the extra labourers. Again sorry for the long posts but I’m just interested if I’m overcharging. As I say I’m not a business and I’ll be doing it as a favour to some degree. I’ve spent several days sourcing materials, visiting the job ( twice) and advising them . I’ve even designed it and have saved hundreds of the materials by using my contacts and discounts etc .. materials-approx £2,600 excluding the slabs .. many thanks and hope you have not fell asleep .

 

[Sachakins]

Reasonable Day rate for mates rates I think.

 

[Bingy man]

I’m getting a little old now for heavy landscaping, when I see guys doing it nowadays the bulk of the work is done by machines .the only machine I will have is a whacker plate for compacting the hardcore etc and a couple of wheelbarrows

 

[Inspector]

We just had an estimate to paint one bedroom and a dozen doors for our basement. That is with me removing all the doors and hardware to be taken down the road so he can spray them. I'll also be doing all the filling of the trim gaps and brad nail holes, removing the light fixtures and curtain rod too. Price will be $4335.82Cad. That is more than double what we expected so we will be doing it. Your job and ours are roughly the same price after exchange. There is no way you are charging enough for all that hard work, even if it is family. I think they should get a couple estimates for others to do the work and then you revise your estimate upwards to halfway between what you have now and what they will need to pony up if you weren't around. You may not agree with me but you did ask.

Pete

 

[Stigmorgan]

Allowing 20 days for all that is reasonable, if the family have issue tell them they can be the labourer to help keep costs down but I don't see any way you'll get that job done in under 3 weeks let alone the 10 days they want you to do it in, I'd tell them if they want 10 days then all the costs triple and you'll need three times the men at least.

 

[HOJ]

@Bingy man You have, to me, already argued yourself out of this job, walk away, I guarantee it will only end badly, says he, having been ripped off for £1000's by a family with an "inheritance".

 

[Bingy man]

Allowing 20 days for all that is reasonable, if the family have issue tell them they can be the labourer to help keep costs down but I don't see any way you'll get that job done in under 3 weeks let alone the 10 days they want you to do it in, I'd tell them if they want 10 days then all the costs triple and you'll need three times the men at least.

This is pretty much what I’ve tried to explain for the type of slabs he wants . His other option is to have normal slabs that will only need about 50 mm of crud to be removed by the time the old slabs are removed . Then instead of 5 -6 ton of hardcore we would only need a few ton of concrete sand and a few bags of cement. The topsoil can be put on top of the existing lawn and compacted with new turf on top . But he/ they want a rolls Royce job for ford escort money ..

 

[Bingy man]

I also think from what I know of them that most of their side of the family don’t work ( legally at least ) but take several holidays a year. If I quote a job for 20 days but it only takes 15 that’s what I would charge for - and most customers will be fine with this , but how many would happily agree to an additional 5 days Don’t get me wrong I’d love to do the job but comments like- can’t we mix the concrete by hand and then we don’t have to hire the pump and have the ready mix

 

[Inspector]

With people like that.......run!

Pete

 

[HappyHacker]

If I were you my back would be developing a problem which requires a few months with no heavy work.

 

[Adam W.]

@Bingy man

In that case ☝︎, I would politely decline offering no excuse.

 

[jcassidy]

You already know it's going to end badly, plus you'll be forever on call to fix up any problems for the next 20 years. Plus making good whatever damage happens to the shed when dismantling or rebuilding. Plus this person has already history with rows...

Don't mix business and family. If you don't mind not getting paid because its family, work away. Sorry to be grim.

At the very very least, get paid upfront and have in writing what you are, and are not, doing.

 

[Stigmorgan]

I also think from what I know of them that most of their side of the family don’t work ( legally at least ) but take several holidays a year. If I quote a job for 20 days but it only takes 15 that’s what I would charge for - and most customers will be fine with this , but how many would happily agree to an additional 5 days Don’t get me wrong I’d love to do the job but comments like- can’t we mix the concrete by hand and then we don’t have to hire the pump and have the ready mix

Mixing by hand is doable but you'll need a new back before you're halfway, the time between mixes could also lead to cold joints in the concrete which would always be a weak point and highly likely to crack.
You are being totally honest and up front with these idiots having used your contacts and friendships to get the materials at very well discounted rates and still they ask for more, as already said, run, run fast and run far, they sound like the type that will be checking over your shoulder every 5 minutes which will slow you down then they will be on the phone complaining constantly after your finished expecting you to come "fix" something at your expense.

 

[Bingy man]

You already know it's going to end badly, plus you'll be forever on call to fix up any problems for the next 20 years. Plus making good whatever damage happens to the shed when dismantling or rebuilding. Plus this person has already history with rows...

Don't mix business and family. If you don't mind not getting paid because its family, work away. Sorry to be grim.

At the very very least, get paid upfront and have in writing what you are, and are not, doing.

This is a big concern and I don’t need the hassle

 

[Jacob]

Post 3
Sorry for the long thread but just need you know how much work is involved.

I’ve sourced all the materials apart from the 20mm slabs. I’ve got everything reqd for the best prices eg 1 .5 cu mtr of concrete ( pumped ) from £850 down to £520-£580 , quality new sleepers at £20 each etc , I make nothing on the mats , I’m not doing it as a business but because of the nature of the work I’m not doing it for free. There will be 2 of us with the provision for 2 extra men for 2 days each ( for digging out and barrowing) and the same with the hard core and soil etc . The rest will be done by myself and my good friend. Inc the extra days I’ve estimated 20 days ( 8 hrs ) as I don’t want to end up working for nothing. The customers( family) have been left the money by a distant relative who passed away and left them the inheritance on the condition that most of the money is invested back into the family home . So at last my ask is am I being over the top in my estimate of 20 days ( obviously) if it takes less they pay less but I’m trying to avoid running out of time and then having to ask for more money/ time . I don’t cut corners so I won’t be happy untill everything is 100%!. Don’t want to talk about the overall cost but we are Working around the £180 per day and £150 per day for the extra labourers. Again sorry for the long posts but I’m just interested if I’m overcharging. As I say I’m not a business and I’ll be doing it as a favour to some degree. I’ve spent several days sourcing materials, visiting the job ( twice) and advising them . I’ve even designed it and have saved hundreds of the materials by using my contacts and discounts etc .. materials-approx £2,600 excluding the slabs .. many thanks and hope you have not fell asleep .

I'd do it for time and materials, unless you are very confident about your estimating skills, which you are obviously not. Around here gardeners charge £25 an hour or more. Include all the hours you have already given them. Mate's rates £19.99?
Remember the basic rule - the client is always wrong. What they are proposing sounds ridiculous.
Our new house had a small but hi-spec garden somewhat similar.
We didn't know it was there until we cut down the Leylandii "hedge" which had become a small copse, and then hacked through various other thickets. Uncovered a network of flower beds with stone edges, concrete kerb stones, beds of shingle, stone and concrete pavings completely overgrown. A bit like discovering a small lost city in the Amazon jungle!
The point is - they were trying to construct some sort of exotic mediterranean designed garden but completely unaware that it will cost a lot to start with and involve intensive maintenance.
A good garden is something which evolves over time. Start with what's already there and well established - it should be a lifetimes project - step by step a bit at a time.

 

[Bingy man]

Mixing by hand is doable but you'll need a new back before you're halfway, the time between mixes could also lead to cold joints in the concrete which would always be a weak point and highly likely to crack.
You are being totally honest and up front with these idiots having used your contacts and friendships to get the materials at very well discounted rates and still they ask for more, as already said, run, run fast and run far, they sound like the type that will be checking over your shoulder every 5 minutes which will slow you down then they will be on the phone complaining constantly after your finished expecting you to come "fix" something at your expense.

There are a few things that I can’t tolerate 1 people who want the best quality job and materials for the lowest cost. 2 those who then try to reduce your price or time to do the work 3 those who then criticise and nit pick everything you do and as you say they are watching every move you make and probably be out scrutinising whee when you go home . Now then I’m not a professional but I’m very particular about how I work . I won’t take a job on if it’s outside my comfort zone or above my skill set. I want my customers to be happy with my work as a job well done will bring in more work .so far most reply’s are suggesting to do a only fools and horses- and run for the hills . I already have a bad back and the thought of doing it even more damage and not getting paid is not worth it . I’ll stick to my estimate and I’m not budging . If they agree to it ghen it’s money up front . They are paying for the materials but I have not disclosed the suppliers . Done that before and with another customer and they decided to do the work themselves..

 

[Bingy man]

I'd do it for time and materials, unless you are very confident about your estimating skills, which you are obviously not. Around here gardeners charge £25 an hour or more. Include all the hours you have already given them. Mate's rates £19.99?
Remember the basic rule - the client is always wrong. What they are proposing sounds ridiculous.
Our new house had a small but hi-spec garden somewhat similar.
We didn't know it was there until we cut down the Leylandii "hedge" which had become a small copse, and then hacked through various other thickets. Uncovered a network of flower beds with stone edges, concrete kerb stones, beds of shingle, stone and concrete pavings completely overgrown. A bit like discovering a small lost city in the Amazon jungle!
The point is - they were trying to construct some sort of exotic mediterranean designed garden but completely unaware that it will cost a lot to start with and involve intensive maintenance.
A good garden is something which evolves over time. Start with what's already there and well established - it should be a lifetimes project - step by step a bit at a time.

The times I seen gardens like you have described- often folk have no idea of what they are planting and where . I think these people that are trying to reduce the labour time so it’s cheaper for them is just an excuse to keep as much of their inheritance for themselves at my expense- I don’t owe them anything but they know my work is sound but the bigger the job the more risk I could get the labour wrong . My mate will want to get paid so I’d be the one to lose out .

 

[Adam W.]

I'd do it for time and materials, unless you are very confident about your estimating skills, which you are obviously not. Around here gardeners charge £25 an hour or more. Include all the hours you have already given them. Mate's rates £19.99?
Remember the basic rule - the client is always wrong. What they are proposing sounds ridiculous.
Our new house had a small but hi-spec garden somewhat similar.
We didn't know it was there until we cut down the Leylandii "hedge" which had become a small copse, and then hacked through various other thickets. Uncovered a network of flower beds with stone edges, concrete kerb stones, beds of shingle, stone and concrete pavings completely overgrown. A bit like discovering a small lost city in the Amazon jungle!
The point is - they were trying to construct some sort of exotic mediterranean designed garden but completely unaware that it will cost a lot to start with and involve intensive maintenance.
A good garden is something which evolves over time. Start with what's already there and well established - it should be a lifetimes project - step by step a bit at a time.

Agree with developing a garden over time, but patience is a quality which is sadly lacking today.