Have a look at this Jacob!

[Jacob]

Just picked up another box of tatty old tools (accidental ebay bid after a few pints). Includes several planes 4s and some woodies. Looking at edges of these and previous mistaken purchases (I'll count them later, must be 30 or so) it has to be said that there are all sorts of rough grinding of primary bevels followed by neater honed secondary bevels, also many distinctly convex over all.
NON AT ALL have the classic text book hollow grind with distinct honed edge, except one which is obviously ex factory and honed perhaps once. They all look hand-held sharpened (slightly untidy), not jigged
These are a random selection of planes from different sources, mostly well used which suggests experienced user.

I think the text book advice is good for getting people started on. Once they have it (and can repeat it) they can then relax and do awful convex bevels just like me! Or rough grinds like many of these. Whatever - as long as the edge is sharp and the process isn't holding up the work.
Text books are mostly for beginners, as are text book techniques.

PS just had another look - the factory fresh ones actually have flat bevels so none of the collection have concave bevels of any sort. It wasn't done - at least not by the several dozen old chaps who last used these planes

 

[Racers]

Mmmm us insulting Jacob! that makes a change.

Well he was before I put him on the ignore list.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

FFS If I'm on your ignore list why don't you ignore me instead of chipping in with pointless comments?

 

[Racers]

Bliss

Pete

 

[Jacob]

......
I think the text book advice is good for getting people started on. Once they have it (and can repeat it) they can then relax and do awful convex bevels just like me! Or rough grinds like many of these. Whatever - as long as the edge is sharp and the process isn't holding up the work.
Text books are mostly for beginners, as are text book techniques.

Sorry to be replying to myself but it occurred to me that the above is also true of sash windows and joinery design in general. Thanks for bringing up the subject up BB!
There are various textbook ways of doing sashes (vary from book to book, or same book different editions). In the field you find them done differently with all sorts of intelligent wheezes and wangles. If you come across a rare "text book" example it means it was done by someone who didn't know how to do it and sensibly referred to a text book, as distinct from someone who hadn't the foggiest and just went ahead and made it up as he went along. Quite a lot of those out there!
Sharpening the same - text book if you aren't sure - when you get the hang of it you go your own way. Except for the modern texts of course, which wrongly advise the use of jigs and introduce a whole new set of problems!
That's it then - the end of the road on this long debate as far as I am concerned. Nothing more to say - except to repeat myself ad infinitum!*

*Shall I start now or wait for a cue? :lol:

 

[Tony Spear]

Good Lord - all you lot arguing about tool sharpening and the "textbooks"!

You should try reading the stuff that was published in my particular area of expertise.

Just look up Igor J. Karassik "Pump Handbook" and try to explain that to a newcomer!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Not been reading this tripe for a while, but just to put Jacob right. Almost every turner uses concave grinds on their tools and never a secondary bevel. It is not only logical, it is almost universally what is done. There may be exceptions that prove the rule, and some done out of ignorance, but single bevel, hollow girind is the norm, not flat (except for skews perhaps) and convex avoided at all costs. I won't argue on your opinion on rounded bevels, though I detest them, I can't say they don't work. Your opinion on the turning tools is just plain wrong, however.

I have never found problems with sharpening and do not find it tedious or difficult, or complex. Modern methods that you often decry are not at all modem, there are just more methods available to us now. Japanese stones are rooted in acient times, diamond dust has been used for grinding and polishing for centuries. This is not difficult it is just a choice and we do not choose all of them. I have a grindstone and 2 waterstones (besides slips and stuff we all accumulate). it is hardly too much kit. I do use, but not always a honing jig for when the angle is nice to know. With this kit i can get sharper and faster than i could with oilstones. I still like oilstones and they are still a viable choice, but I found I prefer the waterstones in most instances. The method for sharpening is much the same, just substitute lubricants and everything is much the same. it would be the same with ceramic stones, diamond stones, scary sharp.... we would just choose one method and have just a small kit, just the same. Why do you continually argue that sharpening has got confusing and difficult with modern methods. No one I know has, or advises anyone to have load of kit or use every sort of sharpening media. But every time it's ' we don't need all this complicated moder stuff, what did they do in Chippendales day' blah blah. Well they sharpened with a grindstone and whetstones from the local quarry, Welsh slate or shist or whatever. it was just the same as now, except we can get stuff from further afield.

I do require more from my edges than can be done with a fine India oilstone and the pretence that I'm getting things sharp.

Mike.

 

[John Brown]

Give the guy a break!
Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread was a deliberate poke at Jacob, obvious from the subject title, and verified by the poker somewhere in the midst of all this noise.

 

[woodbrains]

Give the guy a break!
Don't lose sight of the fact that this thread was a deliberate poke at Jacob, obvious from the subject title, and verified by the poker somewhere in the midst of all this noise.

Hello,

If my post seems overly harsh, it was not intended. I just wish Jacob would tell people what he knows, which is often good, rather than argue with other opinions, which are also often good. Sometimes the rubbish he comes out with to try to contradict others belittles the good stuff he knows, and gets us and him nowhere. I like reasoned debate, but sometimes the will to win takes over and things get silly. It is not just him, I don't mean to pick.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Not been reading this tripe for a while, but just to put Jacob right. Almost every turner uses concave grinds on their tools and never a secondary bevel.

No they don't. Many sharpen on Sorby Proedge for instance, or on a flat plate on the tail stock. Coarse belt sander is good as it is quick and the finish is good enough.I've done all these. In fact as far as I recall concave bevels on turning tools was advised against when I was reading about it at first many years ago. Peter Childs book perhaps, or one of those 60s turners. They all work.

It is not only logical, it is almost universally what is done.

Neither is true. Turners use all shapes from near 90º scraper to convex/flat curved, etc etc. They all work if they have a sharp edge. In any case the diameter of the turned item is going to vary so that will FU your dubious logic

There may be exceptions that prove the rule, and some done out of ignorance, but single bevel, hollow girind is the norm, not flat (except for skews perhaps) and convex avoided at all costs.

Complete nonsense

I won't argue on your opinion on rounded bevels, though I detest them, I can't say they don't work.

Detest? That's really weird! You seem to be emotionally attached to some astonishing trivia. Have you considered counselling of any sort?

Your opinion on the turning tools is just plain wrong, however.

No it isnt. You are talking total nonsense. I presume you don't do any turning or you would know better.

I have never found problems with sharpening and do not find it tedious or difficult, or complex.

Really? I thought you had to use a jig?

.......

I do require more from my edges than can be done with a fine India oilstone and the pretence that I'm getting things sharp.

Mike.

No pretence involved in my part. I use a finer stone where necessary.

You obviously have done little turning Mike, or if you have you have been following some pointless and nonsensical rules. Did you make them up yourself?

I keep thinking I can escape from this Alice through the Looking Glass world of crazy sharpeners but then another nutter comes out of the woodwork and starts gibbering nonsense!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I have been turning since I was a kid. The Sorby pro edge is hardly a universal bit of kit is it? Most turners have a dry grinding wheel. They have a lathe after all, so even the most impoverished turner will have a way of mounting a grinding wheel on the lathe and use the tool rest. But a dry grinder or even a wet one like the Tormek is an accepted part of the turners kiy.

Scrapers are usually 80 degrees ish, 90 is too steep, but the angle is immaterial, it can still and usually is done concave on a grinding wheel. But then again you are being argumentative, since scrapers are not bevel controlled tools, as are gouges etc. which was the reason turning tools were mentioned at all, as having bevels which are distinctly different in purpose to bevels on planes.

Oh and by the way, are you really starting to believe your own rubbish now. I have never said I need a jig to sharpen. I have posted several comment saying that freehand or jig is fine as long as you get sharp. I never said oilstones are bad, I have used them for years, never said scary sharp is bad, just not for me, but you can get very sharp and I know how to do it. If someone wants to do it, I won't throw my hands up in horror and say it is newfangled and complicated. It is simple and convenient, in fact and I can explain how to do it and the pros and cons in an informed way, cause I have done it, same with diamond and ceramic and slate. I do not talk out of ignorance and I do not claim something is useless until I have evidence. I like new advances in woodworking tools etc. it keeps things interesting and without them we would still be chipping bits off with flint axes.

I was actually hoping that you might just give us some informed and useful info from now on, but it seems you prefer unfounded argument, and wont take the compliment as was given about your knowledge. So I will just have to treat everything you say as BS because sifting through the dross for the odd nugget is just too tedious. Never mind, I tried.

Mike.

 

[Tony Spear]

Oh, for God's sake! Why can't you lot give it a rest?

I sharpen my tools as my Grandad showed me - no rubbish about "concave bevels, flat bevels, hollow grinds etc. etc. and all the B****dung!

"Sorby Pro-edge" (do you actually have one of those Jacob?) wasn't around when I was a kid - so my Brothers and I had to wind up a 24" wheel when major work was required!

Just ease off - or this could become one of those "good idea at the time" Forums!!

Enough is enough! :roll:

 

[Jacob]

....
"Sorby Pro-edge" (do you actually have one of those Jacob?) w....

Yes I got one when I seemed to be regularly setting fire to my belt sander with tool grinding.
Nice bit of kit. A bit OTT but comes in handy. Slightly annoyed with myself because I sold an old Picador linisher which would have done the job just as well and with the same size belts.

 

[Tony Spear]

Lord above- can't you give it a rest?

 

[Tony Spear]

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Drawsharp.htm I bet you are speechless Jacob, I was!

AND you should be ashamed of yourself - creating this post just to wind up poor, innocent Jacob when he's done nothing to harm you!

 

[Cottonwood]

Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).

 

[Jacob]

Any way, originally this thread was about a device to sharpen drawknives, why we have diversified into turning tools etc gawd knows alone. :roll:
Just out of interest,how many people own and more importantly use, a draw knife? (I did ask WoodBrains but got no reply).

Me. Used it a bit but in the workshop perhaps a bit redundant as combination of planes , spokeshaves etc work well, with a vice and bench. I have chair making intentions however.
This is weird though this thread. It feels like some sort of computer game - I fight off an army of stick wielding midgets only to find a poisonous dwarf nibbling my ankles!

 

[Tony Spear]

I gotta draw knife - used it to use it to rough out bits of Willow for my friend Ralph who'd been a hurdle maker since 1927. Now only used to knock off the corners of square stuff prior to turning between centres.

 

[Tony Spear]

[I fight off an army of stick wielding midgets only to find a poisonous dwarf nibbling my ankles!

I hope you're not referring to me 'cos me and the boys know where you live.

Be afraid, be very, very afraid! :evil: :evil:

 

[thick_mike]

I use a draw knife to roughly dimension wood before planing for finish...seems quicker than rip sawing or using a scrub plane to me