Have a look at this Jacob!

[Jacob]

You are right Jacob, there is not a great deal of really, really in depth writing in many of the old books. From my point of view this is potentially due to many of these books acting as a companion to an apprentice?

Due to it being a simple subject with no need to say very much!

...
What Ellis does mention I think is the fine types of stones for honing such as Turkey, Arkansas et al. ....

Brief paragraph. Before Norton India I presume.

 

[Cottonwood]

This shows why I use a convex rounded bevvel on a draw knife

On these few cuts I used a largish sloyd knife (22mm wide-about the same as my draw knife), ground scandi flat, like a microtome, a perfect flat wedge shape. Being finnish steel, it has a very durable edge retension that doesnt easiliy turn. Any way, it is fine for most cuts-but fails on small concave radiuses, it tends to produce chatter marks as in this example. A slight rounding to the bevvel (convex) elinimates this problem. My draw knife is set up convex as is one of my mora knives, specially for tight areas like on spoons and ladles where you are blending facets into a smoother form.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Due to it being a simple subject with no need to say very much!

...

I can't believe you just said that, Jacob :shock: :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[G S Haydon]

I think so, some books I have from the 30's mention the India, not sure exactly when they were used widely but this would suggest the uptake was between 1902>1930's
I think many of the modern sources are actually useful for a great many, by that I mean a jig. One thing that strikes me when working on my hobby projects is the lack of time I have. For those coming to the craft very wet behind the ears a jig gives confidence and allows people to get results quickly and easily. Many like them so much they stay with them. Many experience people like them too. Yes they have limits but for many edge tools they do give a very repeatable may of working which in itself can inspire confidence. So very cheap to buy as well, an Eclipse copy is peanuts to buy.

 

[bugbear]

Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.

Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.

To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
to grip the skin.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.

Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.

To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
to grip the skin.

BugBear

That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.

I have to say, it works.

 

[bugbear]

Had a quick look at Ellis. He doesn't say much about sharpening. No mention of grindstones, hollow grinding, no reference to angles. He does warn about rounding over, quite right too, but this doesn't preclude rounding under as per Sellers etc.

Hmm. Let's look at the real Ellis.

To Sharpen the iron - Place a few drops of sweet oil on the oilstone, and
grasping the iron firmly in the right hand, with the palm downwards, apply it to
the stone at an angle about halfway between that of the grinding basil and the
pitch of the iron when in the plane. Rub it to and fro nearly the length of the
stone, pressing the edge firmly down with the fingers of the left hand. Endeavour
to keep the top end of the iron moving in a line parallel with the face of [the]
stone, which will produce a flat bevel. An undulating motion must be avoided,
as this will produce a "round edge", necessitating frequent regrinding. After
rubbing the back for a couple of minutes, turn it over with the face held
quite flat on the stone, and give it a slight rub to remove the wire edge. Take care not
to put any bevel upon this side. Wipe off the oil with shavings and buff the edge
by drawing it across the palm of the left hand in backwards strokes, turning the
left hand over on each side of the iron. Examine the edge; when held to the
light it should be invisible, or it may be tested by gently applying the ball
of the thumb in a sliding motion across the edge, when if sharp, it will be felt
to grip the skin.

BugBear

That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.

I have to say, it works.

I make no present comment on the efficacy of BRR (that's been copiously covered in previous threads).

The point at hand is that, effective (or not) it is not the traditional way, about which we have much evidence, due to the efforts of the TSC.

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

"That's the passage but it's important to note that an undulating movement will cause the honing angle to grow. In Jacob's method the push starts at the desired angle and steadily decreases as the cutter is pushed to the end of the stone. This keeps the angle from growing. It doesn't "undulate" which is what tends to happen by grinding at, say 25*, and attempting to lift the cutter a few degrees and move it randomly around on the stone. Jacob's is a purposeful movement designed to thwart the angle from growing.

I have to say, it works."

Too true! I think it's fair to assume some might of used this method before fast cutting India stones but it was most likely easier done on a fast cutting stone like an India which are relatively new recent in terms or woodworking.
My gut, experience and written evidence is more suggestive of secondary bevels as the most common method used back in the day.

 

[Jacob]

......
The point at hand is that, effective (or not) it is not the traditional way, about which we have much evidence, due to the efforts of the TSC.

BugBear

You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way. I really don't think that after thousands of years of edge tool use I personally have discovered a better way of sharpening. These simple processes aren't waiting to be discovered but have been forgotten (like that firewood trick post813078.html?hilit=billhook#p813078) or simply overwritten by the new sharpeners - info derived (but misunderstood) from a few scanty texts..

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just a thought about relative speed of sharpening for the convex bevel on a stone method, and the ground primary honed secondary method.

Two identical chisels used for the same work by good craftsmen who fully use, but don't abuse their tools will require the same number of sharpenings over a given time - say a month, or so. The dull edge will the same for both chisels since they are used for the same work by similar craftsmen, so both will require the same amount of metal to be removed to restore a good working edge. One chisel is sharpened by convex bevel on honing stones, one by ground primary, honed secondary.

Grinding is a much faster process of metal removal than honing. Both chisels will require the same amount of metal to be removed over the month. It therefore follows that the chisel ground and honed will be restored to working condition in less overall time than the one abraded on hand hones. In other words, less time will be spent sharpening by using the faster metal removal technique of grinding to remove as much as possible, leaving only a little work to be done by honing. Honing all the metal off, even on a coarse stone, must take longer than grinding it off.

Why did people use convex bevel hand-only sharpening then? Well, just speculating, but what do you do if you're working somewhere without easy access to grinding equipment - on site, say; or in a small workshop in which the owner can't afford to install grinding equipment? You do the best with what you have, or can easily obtain.

I would respectfully suggest that if suitable grinding equipment is readily available, most craftsmen will use it if it saves them time and effort. They will expend as little time on sharpening as they can sensibly get away with, and will only do gross metal removal on bench stones if they have no other option. Hence the references in the literature to 'ground basils' and honing at a slightly higher angle.

 

[G S Haydon]

Yep, that's my take on it. Just to stress again convex bevels are great and work just fine. I just don't want to work the whole bevel each time on a fine abrasive, it takes a little longer.

 

[bugbear]

Hence the references in the literature to 'ground basils' and honing at a slightly higher angle.

Indeed - the evidential rock on which Jacob's recent certainties are doomed to founder.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Yep, that's my take on it. Just to stress again convex bevels are great and work just fine. I just don't want to work the whole bevel each time on a fine abrasive, it takes a little longer.

So do as per Sellers - three stones coarse to fine, and stropping! A bit excessive IMHO.

And yes in fact large wet grind stones are relatively rare but no doubt would be used where available. Not essential by any means.
But the big problem is the dry bench grindstone - we were taught that they were unsuitable for sharpening - too fast, too hot, too difficult to get a nice clean edge, too small diameter (hollow ground is weaker the smaller the diameter).
I think they should be avoided, especially by beginners.
In any case a simple system based on one double sided stone is obviously a good default fall-back and should be mastered by everybody.

 

[bugbear]

You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way.

So it comes down to - you think it's the best way, therefore other people back in time would have thought it was the best way, therefore they would have adopted it, therefore they did adopt it, therefore it's traditional.

In a way I admire that theory - it's truly remarkable.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

You can be certain that if it works and is simple, it would be a (the) traditional way.

So it comes down to - you think it's the best way, therefore other people back in time would have thought it was the best way, therefore they would have adopted it, therefore they did adopt it, therefore it's traditional.

In a way I admire that theory - it's truly remarkable.

BugBear

Jeer as much as you like but I stand by what I said. People didn't have grindwheels available all over the place. Nobody at all had jigs not so long ago. How do you think they managed? You obviously have no idea. Did they just down tools and sulk?
I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.

 

[bugbear]

I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.

(chuckle) You managed to have an entire career making sash windows with modern power tools without bothering to find out how they were made with hand tools - you didn't even know what a sash template was in 2011 (which again, is remarkable).

Your "looking closely at trad work all my life" must have been more of a fleeting glance.

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

I can only speak of what we had back in the day, this was perhaps the late 1970's.

More background on that here if you want to take a look http://thewoodhaven.co.uk/phpBB3/viewto ... 5&start=70

 

[Jacob]

I've been looking closely at trad work all my life and what is always impressive is the economy, simplicity and sheer practical intelligence at work, often with simple tools, intractable materials and difficult circumstances.

(chuckle) You managed to have an entire career making sash windows with modern power tools without bothering to find out how they were made with hand tools - you didn't even know what a sash template was in 2011 (which again, is remarkable).

Your "looking closely at trad work all my life" must have been more of a fleeting glance.

BugBear

Been digging in the archive again BB!
I made the first few dozen (and a lot of other stuff) entirely by hand except for ripping with a bandsaw. Did bevels instead of mouldings as I didn't have any moulding planes. Bevels look surprisingly good and from a distance you don't miss the mouldings - this is fairly common in trad windows but doesn't always get noticed. And of course a lot of hand work throughout even after getting machines.
Er, I'm not sure what a sash template is still - some sort of gadget no doubt, which one can do without.
Have another go BB. How is your woodwork getting on? Made anything lately? Or ever? :lol:

PS spotted a sash template, there are other ways of making a neat scribe on the glazing bar crossover:

Apologies to other readers for having this troll following me about.

 

[G S Haydon]

I must confess Jacob here in the South West it is very rare to find anything made before WW 2 that had anything but Ovlo or Lambs Tongue mouldings. Bevels can work very well indeed and I often think with single glazed windows, with the condensation issues it seems logical to throw the water off. Forgive me BB, I don't know what a sash template is!

 

[Corneel]

This is from Nicholson, Mechanic's companion...
This describes exactly my sharpening regime at the moment. And in fact, I've never read something else then similar stuff.

Not to say the convex bevel wasn't used a lot also. Trying to maintane a flat bevel freehand isn't very easy and you end up with a convexity anyhow. I do think, convex bevels are better on thin irons, becuase you don't need to remove so much steel, and the thin iron's bevel doesn't have the same stable footprint. On a thick woody plane iron you would need to remove a lot of metal on each sharpening? Well, I'm gona try it out for myself when I have a bit of time.