Have a look at this Jacob!

[Phil Pascoe]

David, I suspect some of the people quick to criticise have never used or sharpened the tool in the first place. It's just "I'm better, cleverer, and more capable than you. So there."

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If professional chair makers say the gadget does things better and quicker than without, all negative comments from those who haven't even tried the thing, are completely redundant anyway. If people are trying to appear stupid, they are succeeding. Getting the shave sharp without even rising from the shave horse, for a professional chair maker? I'm not sure I see the downside. Time is money; the outlay is likely to be recouped in a week.

Mike.

 

[Cottonwood]

David, I suspect some of the people quick to criticise have never used or sharpened the tool in the first place. It's just "I'm better, cleverer, and more capable than you. So there."

Your too suspicious mate, the last time I did my draw knife was day before yesterday (rugby day yesterday) It camme up razor sharp as always does... (hammer)

Hello,

If professional chair makers say the gadget does things better and quicker than without, all negative comments from those who haven't even tried the thing, are completely redundant anyway. If people are trying to appear stupid, they are succeeding. Getting the shave sharp without even rising from the shave horse, for a professional chair maker? I'm not sure I see the downside. Time is money; the outlay is likely to be recouped in a week.

Mike.

LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock:
What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?

 

[Corneel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVMcFjoOL4 You mean this video?

And as a reminder for everyone. Let's try to refrain from personal attacks and degoratory remarks. For example, somebody isn't "stupid" because he questions the usefullness of something without having used it yet.

 

[Jacob]

I was about to post the same link.
More or less how I do it, though I haven't done a lot with draw knives. Hope to do more.
The main prob with sharpening draw knives is that the handles get in the way so you have to have your oilstone up high, as Boggs shows. An alternative is to have the stone on the edge of a bit of 6"x2" (depending on stone size) held in the vice so you can do it standing up away from the shave horse.
Similar with woody spokeshave blades - the tangs get in the way so you have to raise the stone . Also needs to be a narrow stone for SS blades, so the edge of the stone is ideal.
The gadgets are for people who haven't been shown or can't work out how to do things.
I've no objection to our various experts making a few bob on the side selling gadgets, DVDs, T shirts, tea towels, whatever, but I can't see why Dave and Mike get so self righteous about it. They don't even use them themselves. Do they want to gadgetize everything? Wossit all about? :shock:

PS Boggsy's method is a bit on the fussy side - diamond and waterstone! Both ops easily done with one oil stone and easier away from the shave horse so you can leave both your workpiece and your sharpening kit set up, without having to re-arrange them.

 

[David C]

Well Jep, wrong again. Please stop inventing these ridiculous lies.

I have used a draw knife to make one of Brian Boggs' chairs.

The facets left on the surface make a pleasing change from the smooth flat surfaces of much cabinetwork.

David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

Well Jep, wrong again. Please stop inventing these ridiculous lies.

I have used a draw knife to make one of Brian Boggs' chairs.

The facets left on the surface make a pleasing change from the smooth flat surfaces of much cabinetwork.

David Charlesworth

I meant the gadget Dave. I guessed you might have had a go with a draw knife at some point.
Have you bought the gadget? If not, why not?

 

[David C]

Well I apologise for getting that wrong.

I am simply astonished that so many people who are not full time users of draw knives, are so dismissive of this nicely made guide.

However It is also clear that if a good enough result is being got freehand, the guide is not necessary.

If I were contemplating another country chair, I think I might well buy one !!

David

 

[Trafalgar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVMcFjoOL4 You mean this video?

And as a reminder for everyone. Let's try to refrain from personal attacks and degoratory remarks. For example, somebody isn't "stupid" because he questions the usefullness of something without having used it yet.

I assume this new jig must be able to accommodate the slightly rounded bevels (on both sides) that Boggs says he prefers in the video link above.

Anybody know for sure?

TIA

 

[Cottonwood]

I assume this new jig must be able to accommodate the slightly rounded bevels (on both sides) that Boggs says he prefers in the video link above.

Anybody know for sure?

TIA

You would need to consult Mr Boggs to find out. Seeing as the device has straight and cylinderical bars for the sharpening, it seems unlikkely it would be any use to create anything but a microtome-like (scandinavian knife) type bevvel.

I am simply astonished that so many people who are not full time users of draw knives, are so dismissive of this nicely made guide.

:-s I would still be dismissive of this gadget even if it was crudely made.

 

[woodbrains]

LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock:
What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?

Hello,

No one has to believe anything anyone says, professional or not. But since Brian Boggs' work is of the highest order, he makes a living at doing so and has done so successfully for a long time, anything he does say is likely to be worth accepting as a very good endorsement. Alternatively, those opinions that come from largely non chair making, very occasional drawknife using commentators, who have not seen nor tried the device in question, can be held in absolutely no regard, whatsoever. And just to clarify; I have not called anyone stupid, but contending that something is not worthwhile without any experience of the thing in question, in light of some who have experienced it and find it does have worth, can only be described as stupid. I cannot see how it could be anything else.

Mike.

 

[Cottonwood]

LOL you mean-we have to accept as gospel anything a proffessional says?? :shock:
What on earth was or is wrong with B Boggs's original nifty and efficient method (on video, no gadget except brown paper to stop grit dust getting onto shave horse) and how would this new gadget improve things bearing in mind he uses rounded bevvels to the draw knife?

Hello,

No one has to believe anything anyone says, professional or not. But since Brian Boggs' work is of the highest order, he makes a living at doing so and has done so successfully for a long time, anything he does say is likely to be worth accepting as a very good endorsement. Alternatively, those opinions that come from largely non chair making, very occasional drawknife using commentators, who have not seen nor tried the device in question, can be held in absolutely no regard, whatsoever. And just to clarify; I have not called anyone stupid, but contending that something is not worthwhile without any experience of the thing in question, in light of some who have experienced it and find it does have worth, can only be described as stupid. I cannot see how it could be anything else.

Mike.

There might have been something in what you said-assuming that is that up until now there was no way to get a razor sharp draw knife using a normal stone. But many people have done so, including B Boggs himself. He demonstarates it on a video (see above) And if that method is now redundant and surpassed by the new gadget, then that video should be removed :lol:
As I said earlier I know how to sharpen my draw knife, I do so regularly and it is razor sharp. Do you use a drawknife a lot?
LOL There is no way I am going to buy a useless gadget "on the off chance" it might be useful

BTW no one has yet commented on the fact that Mr Boggs uses rounded bevels to the draw knife (I know its frowned upon by the experts such as yourself). I use them as well, the said gadget would be NO USE AT ALL to get rounded bevels, in fact it would ruin the bevel geometry on a draw knife that had carefully set up round bevvels....although admittedly it WOULD produce an excellent flat scandi bevel, can you see that Mike? Sometimes you dont need to buy,touch, feel or use something to know it will be of no use to you.... :roll:

 

[Jacob]

The fact is he is just another woodwork media circus man trying to sell, er, anything, and supporting his fellow circus vendors. Doesn't mean it's crappe necessarily but there's a lot of it about and you have to be pretty "objective" (cynical). Especially as they endlessly repeat the message of how difficult things are unless you buy x, y, z.
Can't wait to see the LV MK4 jig!

PS rounded bevels!!! I'm surprised his union allows it!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Please find me one comment I made where I say it is wrong to have rounded bevels. you wont, because i never have. Also,a rounded bevel on a drawknife is not the same as rounded bevels on a plane iron. STOP making up things I never said and then arguing the opposite. I have said why I don't like rounded bevels on a plane iron, with reasons, but never said it was wrong per se.

If the jig has no use to you personally, it still has a use which others may well benefit. (The tool clearly is fit for purpose and does what it claims) This is not the same thing as being useless. It seems not having a use for a thing equates to the thing being no good, or a cynical marketing ploy to some, which is clearly wrong. Just don't buy it if you don't want it. Choice is a good thing. Ironically, the times when I and others have opposed tools which have not been fit for purpose and are badly made and will not meet expectations, the usual suspects sing out in its defence. (Re. Bevel edged chisel that had no bevels to speak of, and an unusable handle) I think there is arguing for the sake of it, to the detriment of consistency. I, at least am consistent.

Mike.

 

[David C]

"C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).

Hampton is referring to plane irons. The above quote comes from my 1959 edition, which was first publishecd in 1934.

What a great word whetting is.

David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

"C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).

Rounding over is bad (increases the cutting angle) but rounding under is perfectly OK. Hampton wouldn't go in to too much detail as the book is cautiously written for amateurs - "the amateur and the younger professional" I seem to recall. Doesn't do to overload with information!

It's funny that everybody has got hung up on the rounded bevel issue - it seems mainly down to misunderstanding texts and advice for amateurs.
Time you moved on a bit Dave, instead of banging on endlessly about something you read in an old DIY book from the 30s!

 

[woodbrains]

"C shows an edge that is "rounded" , due to inexperienced whetting, and caused by rocking the iron on the oilstone (see whetting the iron).

Hampton is referring to plane irons. The above quote comes from my 1959 edition, which was first publishecd in 1934.

What a great word whetting is.

David Charlesworth

Hello,

Did you find this reference for me, David? My post refers to a quote I might have said before, since I keep getting accused of saying they are wrong, but I don't think I ever did. It is the usual case of having words put into ones mouth and then being argued on how wrong you are ! I suppose you could sharpen with rounded bevels, but the whole thing is, rounded bevels on a plane iron is NOT the same as a rounded bevel on a carving gouge, drawknife or turning gouge. It is often claimed that rounding the bevel on the latter three is acceptable, (a turning tool will have a concave bevel, of course), therefore it must be on the plane. I'm afraid that is like saying lions eat meat, therefore meat will make a good meal for a lamb; they are all mammals, after all. This is the sort of poor logic that gets us nowhere fast on these forums. The latter 3 tools use the bevel as a guide, you 'ride on the bevel' in use. It is a function of the tools use. For planes, rounding the bevel is a sharpening expedient, nothing more. The plane does not require it to function. It may well function all the same, but it is not why it is done.

Now it may not be necessary for some to know the angle of the plane irons bevel. But for some it is, so a flat bevel or a secondary bevel IS useful for those people. I like to know as I like to vary the EP of the planes I use. A guess is not good enough, but a jig will allow me to know and vary the angles by small amounts until I get the result I require. Those who don't need to know, fine, but other ways are useful to those who want to understand a bit more about the cutting edges they produce and use.

Mike.

 

[G S Haydon]

Heaven knows why I'm going to post on this but hey ho! Right, rounded bevels work, period! Secondary bevels work, period! Which one do I like, secondary. Why? Beacuse it's quicker for me.
I bought a new Irwin Bluechip as I was interested to find out how long it takes to get a chisel ready from new. Boy it was quick, back was prepped on a hard Arkansas, the blade was as I prefer, hollow in its length so the area behind the cutting edge was where the honing was focused, the factory marks were soon removed by the fine abrasive as it was working on a small area, about 60 seconds. Flipped it over onto the factory 25 deg bevel lifted 5 deg or so and lightly honed keeping a steady hand, burr was raised and removed briskly. To me this was so quick because the fine abrasive was working on such a small area. I see this as a huge advantage, a fine abrasive on a small area. I did not need a piece of glass from the dumpster/skip and loads of abrasive sheets tearing as I wnet or any similar faffing about. I did not have to work the whole bevel to hone which would take more time.
I think also just becuse there are hollow oilstones and convex bevels does not mean that historically that everyone was doing it, they were not. Sure, some did just not all. It is laid down in a great deal of text that a secondary bevel is an advantage, flat stones are an advantage. The people wrting this stuff were not and are not fools.
Similary please don't take that as convex bevels are wrong or those using them are fools, they work just fine, they are a valid method and it would seem essential for some tools. I just find that a secondary bevel is sooooooooooooo quick for simple edge tools like chisels. C'mon Jacob you silly sausage, it's not just DIY books from the 30's its just about all the books on the subject . One thing is for sure the quality of the work produced from a convex or secondary bevel is of the same standard, the person driving it after it's sharpened is the more important issue.

 

[Jacob]

..... For planes, rounding the bevel is a sharpening expedient, nothing more. The plane does not require it to function. It may well function all the same, but it is not why it is done......

Exactly what I have been saying for years. The rounded bevel is a sharpening expedient and neither aids nor detracts from the cutting action of any of the tools mentioned, as long as the edge is maintained at 30º ish.
If you want to see how expedient it is watch Sellers' sharpening vid. It's just quick and easy.
Glad we've cleared that one up!

PS not sure why "a turning tool will have a concave bevel". I see no reason for this as they also work perfectly well with flat or convex bevels.

PPS re The people writing this stuff were not and are not fools. true but they were writing for the uninformed (almost by definition) and would be inclined to describe "correct" methods suitable for beginners. Do as a I say not as I do.

 

[G S Haydon]

The people writing this stuff were not and are not fools.[/i] true but they were writing for the uninformed (almost by definition) and would be inclined to describe "correct" methods suitable for beginners. Do as a I say not as I do.

You cheeky devil :lol:. I'm not sure Ellis et al were writing for the uninformed, they were documenting I would assume common practice and the text would most likely be a companion to an apprentice. I don't imagine for one second George thought "Tell you what lads, don't tell em about the old hollow oil stone trick". Please do remember that a convex bevel is just fine, Mr Sellers method is fine and appropriate too but it's not thatquick or special really. I'm just not convinced by the body of evidence that says everyone was working on hollow stones with convex bevels.