Happy to be home

[Farmer Giles]

I can concur with that, in the stroke unit my father was in there were directly managed senior nurses, then below them not quite so senior nurses contracted out to one company, then nurses that did the day to day bed management/feeding who were sub contracted through two agencies. Each layer is taking a profit margin, the staff get less training and there is no clear chain of command. So less const effective, less care and no innovation and less team work/spirit.

On top of that my father has been taking up an expensive bed in a stroke unit because the social care system is completely unable to cope, he has been in remission for several weeks but couldn't find him a bed elsewhere while we sorted out long term care - more expense.

You couldn't it mismanage worse if you tried, but I don't blame the NHS, I blame Mr Hunt as it is his plan.

You could say that I am being a hypocrite for going private, however I see it as being pragmatic. I don't pay the health insurance, just some tax on the benefit and the company doesn't give me money back if I opt out. Living in rural Yorkshire but working in London, now expertise is centralised and I can't drive it would be a nightmare trying to to get a scan here, see a consultant there, get an operation over there. This way I get it all done in one location and save the under stress NHS cash.

Health insurance companies don't do this for fun, they make a profit, I would much rather pay a bit more NI and have a superb NHS open to all and properly managed and run as a business with less government intervention than pay for private healthcare. I would like to see the NHS branch out into other countries and make a profit there too, just like the Dutch national rail operator runs our rail services through Abellio, the cerman national rail through Arriva etc. that would lower our NI contributions.

 

[Lons]

In a perfect world it would work but it isn't ist it?

If anyone wants to see the other side of funds wastage apart from mismanagement just go to any A & E on a Friday or weekend night and see how much resorceis wasted on drunks, druggies and the damage caused while under the influence, and that takes no account of the other costs of policing that. Having also seen those with " a splinter in my finger / mozzie bites / toothache / constpation, you name it beggars belief but true, isn't quite what the NHS was conceived for!

As far as agency nurses are concerned, the only reason they are there is because top heavy management cuts costs at the sharp end which leaves a vacuum which has to be filled even though agency costs are higher, but then accounting wizardry puts those costs in a different category!
Competition does work in general Jacob, Most of us will have worked in industries which largely prove that while of course it doesn't lead to improved quality it does tend to weed out the weaker, less efficient companies. It doesn't need to be about money either as in many cases healthy competition means you improve quality and/or added value or go bust.
however it doesn't work at all well in the current NHS framework which is too big an animal and too fragmented to control. And the NHS is now all about cost saving.

I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet, mods must be asleep. :lol:

 

[Jacob]

In a perfect world it would work but it isn't ist it?

If anyone wants to see the other side of funds wastage apart from mismanagement just go to any A & E on a Friday or weekend night and see how much resorceis wasted on drunks, druggies and the damage caused while under the influence, and that takes no account of the other costs of policing that. Having also seen those with " a splinter in my finger / mozzie bites / toothache / constpation, you name it beggars belief but true, isn't quite what the NHS was conceived for!

Everybody has to be cared for even if they are pathetic tw&ts! You never know the circumstances of any particular individual - there could be serious issues. There's a good argument for putting the cost on alcohol duties. It 'd help me stop drinking!

....
Competition does work in general Jacob, Most of us will have worked in industries which largely prove that while of course it doesn't lead to improved quality it does tend to weed out the weaker, less efficient companies. It doesn't need to be about money either as in many cases healthy competition means you improve quality and/or added value or go bust.

Can work of course but 99% of human activity has always been based on co-operation not competition. "Weak and inefficient" businesses aren't necessarily a bd thing -it depends on where you stand. Would you want IKEA or Tesco to completely dominate their markets?
Was having the same argument in the pub on Friday - my mate Graham was saying that for every successful winning business there has to be failing losing one. But in reality businesses all depend on one another and really need their fellow businesses to survive and do well. And of course there is the old question - where is the best place to set up a shoe shop? Answer, next to another one.

...
I'm surprised this thread isn't locked yet, ...:lol:

Not being able to talk about politics is very childish! It just happens to be extremely interesting at the moment and could affect us all. We are all grown ups aren't we, or are there children in the room?

 

[Lons]

Nope! Some of those pathetic "tw&ts" are beyond help and sometimes some of us do know their background and circumstances, not all of course but read again as I didn't say all was down to alchohol or drugs. That doesn't account for the very minor stuff which is down to plain ignorance and attitude. I would add that if drunks are "entitled to be cared for" then unfortunately the NHS staff who are regularly assaulted by them have few rights - trust me, assaults are common, I donT get my facts from the press!
That said of course there is always hope that everyone might be helped however, go to work in a prison for a while and you'll soon realise that the inmates fall into 3 categories - mad, sad or bad, most of the latter despite all the help they get will never change and don't forget that most of those will be back on the streets and in the hospitals at some stage. Hope you don't meet one on a dark night.
Y
Btw, If you need a price hike to stop you drinking Jacob then you do need help! :shock:

Don't know where you got your "99% of human activity" info, maybe reading fairy stories after too many bevies, as far as I see it the strongest and brightest have usually triumphed over the weakest, co-operation or not and I never said of course that I want or support that and of course don't want the likes of Tesco to be the Microsoft of the grocery world.
I just try to be a realist rather than fantacist who believes in fairies

Cheers
Bob
Edit: i'm not replying at stupid hours in the morning btw, it's 8 hours behind the UK here in Canada :lol:

 

[Jacob]

Nope! Some of those pathetic "tw&ts" are beyond help and sometimes some of us do know their background and circumstances, not all of course but read again as I didn't say all was down to alchohol or drugs. That doesn't account for the very minor stuff which is down to plain ignorance and attitude. I would add that if drunks are "entitled to be cared for" then unfortunately the NHS staff who are regularly assaulted by them have few rights - trust me, assaults are common, I donT get my facts from the press!.......

Drink and drugs creates a huge problem. Are you saying we shouldn't deal with it? Arguably they could be regulated and more heavily taxed in the same way as tobacco - which seems to be trouble free and highly effective. It's not about "entitlement" it's about doing what's necessary in a civilised society. It's too easy to blame those at the bottom of the heap for societies ills.
There are other forms of "reckless" behaviour which can lead to accidents and ill health ; sport, woodwork. over-eating, cycling, couch potatoing, etc etc should they exclude you from health care?

 

[stuartpaul]

It's worth remembering that comparing public and private sector pay rises is not valid unless pension benefits are taken into account. Public sector index linking and protection generally materially outperforms private sector.

And so does the contribution made by the individual. As a public sector pension recipient I'm reasonably sick to death of hearing about my 'gold plated pension' (I know you didn't make that statement) yet when I ask people who do make that statement what their contributions are/we're the response if far below what I've paid.

 

[Jacob]

........

Don't know where you got your "99% of human activity" info, maybe reading fairy stories after too many bevies, as far as I see it the strongest and brightest have usually triumphed over the weakest, co-operation or not ....:

Depends on your definitions.
Democracy itself is a form of co-operation and gives us (you and me) enormous power, which is why the right want to 'shrink the state'. It's OUR power they want to remove, as with the protection given by 'red tape', and/or trade unions and other regulating and standards bodies competing with the illusory 'free market'.

 

[powertools]

Firstly i would like to say that it is good to hear that our NHS has done you prowd but secondly i would suggest that just throwing more money at it will never solve the issues there are many ways that it could become more efficient and the savings could then be directed to the areas in most need.

 

[Jacob]

Firstly i would like to say that it is good to hear that our NHS has done you prowd but secondly i would suggest that just throwing more money at it will never solve the issues there are many ways that it could become more efficient and the savings could then be directed to the areas in most need.

I don't think anybody is suggesting "throwing more money at it". In general people are arguing for spending a lot more, but in a constructive and well planned way. We can afford it, the country has never been wealthier.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Firstly i would like to say that it is good to hear that our NHS has done you prowd but secondly i would suggest that just throwing more money at it will never solve the issues there are many ways that it could become more efficient and the savings could then be directed to the areas in most need.

I don't think anybody is suggesting "throwing more money at it". In general people are arguing for spending a lot more, but in a constructive and well planned way. We can afford it, the country has never been wealthier.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

 

[finneyb]

The Pay Review Bodies take into account what the private sector pays for similar skill levels, amongst other criteria.

I don't see any real recruitment and retention problems - there will always be some leaving - and as I understand it the private sector pay remains less than public sector pay. So the Pay Review Bodies will be risking their credibility if they go above 1% pay increase - I doubt they will do that.

What we are seeing is the situation being talked up by politicians - both Labour and Tory - for their own ends.

 

[powertools]

Firstly i would like to say that it is good to hear that our NHS has done you prowd but secondly i would suggest that just throwing more money at it will never solve the issues there are many ways that it could become more efficient and the savings could then be directed to the areas in most need.

I don't think anybody is suggesting "throwing more money at it". In general people are arguing for spending a lot more, but in a constructive and well planned way. We can afford it, the country has never been wealthier.

What on earth leads you to think that this country has never been wealthier?

 

[Jacob]

Firstly i would like to say that it is good to hear that our NHS has done you prowd but secondly i would suggest that just throwing more money at it will never solve the issues there are many ways that it could become more efficient and the savings could then be directed to the areas in most need.

I don't think anybody is suggesting "throwing more money at it". In general people are arguing for spending a lot more, but in a constructive and well planned way. We can afford it, the country has never been wealthier.

What on earth leads you to think that this country has never been wealthier?

Just looking around at the life most people lead. Compared to say 10 years ago they have better health, better food, better holidays, warmer houses, better cars - the list is endless. You can see it all around you.
Just been to Menorca (not the UK but the story is the same) - every little harbour there is stuffed with millionaires playthings - catamarans like aircraft carriers.
Here every street in every town and village is stuffed with posh cars (compared to only a few years ago). Compared to our parents generation and the difference is even bigger.
Not everybody is getting the advantage of course but it's glaringly obvious that there's masses of wealth washing about around us, you just have to look. Look at the London skyline (but not every tower block is a millionaires investment unfortunately).

PS think of the tools a modern woodworker has - worth many times what he would have had 10 years ago, worth probably hundreds of times what his dad had! Most of us are rolling in it - including me; technically not well off, very low pension and a tiny occasional boost, but very aware that the quality of my life is much better than it was not so long ago.

 

[finneyb]

I can see what Jacob is saying BUT it has foundations on sand.

We have the debt that is about 90% of GDP; when interest rates rise, as they will, we are going to feel it.
The next bubble to burst is the Personal Purchase Contract for cars - very few old cars on the road these days because they are all purchased on credit - £31 billion of credit to buy cars is simply not sustainable.

Brian

 

[Jacob]

I can see what Jacob is saying BUT it has foundations on sand.

We have the debt that is about 90% of GDP; when interest rates rise, as they will, we are going to feel it.
The next bubble to burst is the Personal Purchase Contract for cars - very few old cars on the road these days because they are all purchased on credit - £31 billion of credit to buy cars is simply not sustainable.

Brian

The banks and the finance system has a problem. Let them solve it, they are supposed to be the experts. If they can't, let them go bust. WE are not responsible. If they have lent us too much then they've got their sums wrong. Soddem!

 

[finneyb]

But as we saw in 2008 the Banks get bailed out - with taxpayer's (you and me) support.
The establishment cannot be allowed to fail.

Also stop credit and the car industry goes bust and we have another recession

Brian

 

[Jacob]

The establishment cannot be allowed to fail....

The establishment fails us again and again. They should bear the cost.
You couldn't stop credit over night true, but you could tighten up on it. There used to be rules about lending limits which kept things stable - kept house price steady amongst other things.
Personally I think there's too much caution about finance and too much respect for money and property. I think the establishment should get a good kicking all round!

 

[finneyb]

So you want an Emmanuel Macron - I can live with that.

Brian

 

[Jacob]

So you want an Emmanuel Macron - I can live with that.

Brian

Dunno not sure what he stands for to be honest. I'll have a read!

 

[Lons]

I never suggested any of that Jacob so don't get Your knickers in a twist again woman !!z,

I completely agree that drugs and alchohol are a major problem but price hikes aren't always the answer, education is more productive. I know a lot of people who smoke and not one of them has given up because of the cost, they just moan a lot more and do without other things like buying poorer quality food or buying the "hooky" cigs and tobacco, some now roll their own.
Indescriminate price hikes are purely to raise revenue, those who can afford it don't care but it hits the poorest harder. Help to get off the cigs and drugs is far better than treating the results iof the problems in our hospitals

The system does deal with drug addicts and alchoholics where they are willing to be helped although there certainly aren't enough resources but that's true of everything involving health, just look at the mental health and obesity problems.
With a missus who for 8 years helped the druggies in prison and many family members in medical occupations I've seen some of it.

Of course very few statstics are fact, just depends where you get them and how interpreted, don't believe all you read Jacob and then regurgitate as fact!

Bottom line is that we're all living too long and we can't afford it, same with pensions, my kids will be at least 70 if they get any at all.

Anyway, I'm sitting in the sunshine on Vancouver Island at the minute about to go out for a nice meal and looking forward to another evening of relaxation and wildlife viewing so not in the mood to argue with you.
Just promise when you've had a couple too many, fall over ( or get into a fight if your pub argument gets out of hand), that you don't insult or assault any af the staff in A & E. It might well be one of my relatives.

What's your surname again? So I can warn them!