Hand tool: sharpening and general use questions

[Jacob]

.... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.

I don't agree. I think they are part and parcel of the same job and you want to be able to do it quickly and easily when you are in the middle of a job. Much like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing.

Out of curiosity Jacob, are you a turner?

A bit. A few bowls and stuff. What I've done most is knobs and shaker type pegs. It took some time but I can do a run of either all coming out the same instead of scrabbling for a matching set from a mixture of odd sizes, how it was at the start.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think you're right that they're part of the same job and I agree that when you're at the lathe the last thing you want is the downtime associated with sharpening. And I think your pencil analogy is spot on ie you just want it sharp as fast as heck so you can get on with the fun bit ie the turning. I think the nub of this debate is the time it takes to get it done to a decent enough standard. For me, the technology genuinely assists me in that respect and facilitates my fast return to the lathe. I don't doubt that using freehand methods you can achieve a bevel to the standard you feel happy with, but that takes time to learn and perfect. My personal choice (having started out with oil stones many years ago) is to use technology to speed up my downtime. But its a choice. I respect your choice to do it the traditional way, I think you might get slightly less flack if you respected other choices. But it is, after all, a free country and truth be told, I like a range of points of view and think the world would be a poorer place if everyone fell in line with the same perspective

 

[Dino]

Out of interest are there any cheap jigs for an angle grinder? I've spotted on one axminster which cost about £75 and while I appreciate theirs is probably very functional I'd much rather make a cheaper one out of wood.

And what grit stone would I use on an angle grinder to sharpen turning tools? I only have very coarse grit on the one I own.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

Search Google images for ideas:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=grind ... s&tbm=isch

Easy enough to make out of wood or MDF

80 or 100 grit white, ruby or blue wheel

Regards Mick

 

[Woodmonkey]

Dino these are similar to what you saw today in my workshop

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ad ... ening-rest
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-aw ... ne-grinder

 

[Dino]

That's the one I was looking for hah. I've got a decent grinder that I've only used for sharpening axes really. It's more the stone I was looking for.


Thanks!

 

[Rhossydd]

It's more the stone I was looking for.

I've found the O'Donnell 80 grit ruby wheel excellent for sharpening turning tools. http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Grindin ... heels.html not too expensive either. As seen in the picture posted earlier with the home made jig.
I've got the Axminster aluminium rest referenced by woodmonkey, but it's not the greatest bit of kit they sell, more of an adjustable tool rest, rather than a jig as such.

 

[Lons]

.... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.

="Jacob"wrote............I don't agree. I think they are part and parcel of the same job and you want to be able to do it quickly and easily when you are in the middle of a job. Much like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing.

Jacob, that's complete and utter rubbish!

A skilled turner can and would if necessary produce acceptable results with a sub standard tool just as would an artist with a blunt pencil. Not that they would wish to and of course ayone using a tool or a pencil needs it to be sharp but that's got absolutely nothing to do with skill. I repeat even though it falls on deaf ears, sharpening is merely a means to an end!

A person has skills - an inanimate object certainly does not :lol: I have yet to witness, (robotic or cnc machines excepted) a pencil or chisel that can produce anything without a human hand to guide it.

Bob

ps
A sharp skew helped me produce this, or did it make the pen on my behalf :wink:

 

[Mr T]

Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.

Chris

 

[Lons]

Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.

Chris

Now that's proper help and advice =D> =D> =D>

 

[Dino]

Just back from holiday and seen this thread. Dino, if you could get up to my workshop in Ilkley I can give you some free hands on help with sharpening and use. PM me if you are interested.

Chris

Thanks Chris, PM sent. Being told what I'm doing wrong would be fantastic help.

 

[Jacob]

.... The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.

="Jacob"wrote............I don't agree. I think they are part and parcel of the same job and you want to be able to do it quickly and easily when you are in the middle of a job. Much like sharpening a pencil when you are drawing.

Jacob, that's complete and utter rubbish!

A skilled turner can and would if necessary produce acceptable results with a sub standard tool just as would an artist with a blunt pencil. Not that they would wish to and of course ayone using a tool or a pencil needs it to be sharp but that's got absolutely nothing to do with skill. I repeat even though it falls on deaf ears, sharpening is merely a means to an end!

A person has skills - an inanimate object certainly does not :lol: I have yet to witness, (robotic or cnc machines excepted) a pencil or chisel that can produce anything without a human hand to guide it.

Bob

ps
A sharp skew helped me produce this, or did it make the pen on my behalf :wink:

Nice pen. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I must say I was struggling with the point a bit too. If I read between the lines as well as the text I think he's saying 2 things:

Firstly, lets bash Jacob (and I have to be honest you bring that on yourself Jacob, because you always lead with the chin!!) Secondly, that the sharpness of the tool is unrelated to the turning skill development.

Parhaps Lons will be along later to clarify. I must say whilst I applaud the Jacob bashing , I'm not sure I agree with the notion that a master turner can do wonders with a blunt tool. Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe). Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them

 

[Jacob]

..... Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe).

You might as well argue that it doesn't matter how the turning is done, is only the end product which counts and a copy lathe is the way

Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them

The reason I keep chipping in is that so often when a beginner asks a question he is presented with modern sharpening as though there is no sensible option and that freehand is almost impossible. It's not true, it's dead easy and also very useful as a standby if nothing else.
Personally I think it's more than a standby and is part of the craft skill itself, not a separate operation.

PS Just an afterthought - the wolverine jig holds a chisel at a fixed angle - why can't the user hold it at that angle unaided? He can manage it perfectly well when he's doing the actual turning.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I take your point Jacob, really I do. You're promoting the value of the fundamentals, the basic skills that if learned first, early on, provide the foundation for the craft. In a way you're selling the notion of the apprenticeship. That there is a correct order of things to learn and if you do them in that sequence, it will inform and enable the skill as it develops and I entirely agree with that "bottom up" approach.

I think where we differ is where the start point should be? I view the modern sharpening methods (characterised by things like the Tormek and Sorby Pro-edge incidentally) as short cuts along that learning curve. I hate to use a car analogy but here goes: They are in some respects similar. You could have the student walk the 3 miles to the destination because walking is a fundamental skill and therefore should be valued and taught. Or you could accept that cars are here, use them and get to the destination faster. You will have had to shell out some money to do that, but you can get on to the stuff that happens at the destination very quickly.

I think that in turning, a really useful start point is standing at the lathe with a 3/4" roughing gouge in your hand and a piece of yew spinning very fast in front of you.

The technology just boosts you further down the track that's all. In the case of complex geometries like bowl gouges, doing it by hand may actually impede turning progress because the frustration factor would be a barrier.

I do respect your position though. Perhaps with a little less dogma

 

[MMUK]

I think that in turning, a really useful start point is standing at the lathe with a 3/4" roughing gouge in your hand and a piece of yew spinning very fast in front of you.

:shock:

You forgot to mention that the person should be wearing goggles, ear defenders and gloves!


:wink:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

of course......and before you use any power tools, always read the manufacturers.......there is no more important safety aspect than these, safety glasses!

 

[MMUK]

of course......and before you use any power tools, always read the manufacturers.......there is no more important safety aspect than these, safety glasses!

And if the EU has it's way, you'll need a license before you can buy a power tool. :roll:

 

[Woodmonkey]

You might as well argue that it doesn't matter how the turning is done, is only the end product which counts and a copy lathe is the way

No, a copy lathe is fine for knocking out table legs but would not be able to replicate most of the highly skilled work such as that which is showcased on this site.

 

[Lons]

I must say I was struggling with the point a bit too. If I read between the lines as well as the text I think he's saying 2 things:

Firstly, lets bash Jacob (and I have to be honest you bring that on yourself Jacob, because you always lead with the chin!!) Secondly, that the sharpness of the tool is unrelated to the turning skill development.

Parhaps Lons will be along later to clarify. I must say whilst I applaud the Jacob bashing , I'm not sure I agree with the notion that a master turner can do wonders with a blunt tool. Amazing turning results and very sharp tools are hand in glove. I still stand by my original point which is that it doesn't matter how sharpening gets done, the method is unimportant, the resultant sharpness is what counts and the speed with which its delivered (to get back on the lathe). Further, that the method adopted is a matter of personal choice and thank goodness we have the good fortune to live in an age when choices abound almost endlessly (even if there are one or two snake oil salesmen trying to get us to make them

Just logged back in and read my post and I confess I'm struggling as well with the content. (My excuse is that I'd had a few beers before I wrote it :wink: )

Anyway, you've pretty much got it Bob.

The skill of a turner, woodworker, and virtually any other trade you care to mention is developed within the person, not the tools he or she is using. There are of course many tasks which can't be achieved without specific tools and a great many more which are made much easier by a jig or a tool. My point was that these tools are purely a means to an end, nothing else and whilst sharpening skills are also developed it is a seperate skill.
In the case of a turning tool, of course it need to be sharp but I stand by my comment as I have witnessed remarkable results from an old guy using bench chisels which I definately did not consider sharp enough for my use. Granted, he used more abrasive paper than I would but the finished results were excellent.
I would also add that I use my turning tools straight off the grinder (no jigs) and they are more than sharp enough for turning but my carving chisels are honed to a mirror finish - horses for courses.
As another example, I am quite capable of planing a piece of softwood if out on site with a blade that's past its best. It's bloody hard work and I don't want to but it can be done if necessary.

My issue with Jacob is purely his tunnel vision attitude as he is undoubtedly a skilled and knowledgeable woodworker but there are many others on this forum who are at least as skillful just a lot less vociferous.

I don't disagree with the points about hand sharpening as I was taught the same methods but they aren't the be all and end all. My memories of apprentices is that once they learned how to sharpen, they were usually given that task whilst the qualified guys got on with the creative stuff.

If Jacob wants to live in the past then there's nothing at all wrong with that and everyone is entitled to an opinion but that's exactly what it is, nothing more! By posting opinions as fact he could deter beginners from progressing where the use of modern "gadgets" might help them develop. Personally I prefer progress and happily use anything and everything which enhances my enjoyment of my work and hobbies. That's my perogative and when newbies ask for advice, it should be given as such not rammed down their throats as the only way to go.

Bob