Hand tool: sharpening and general use questions

[Jacob]

Different game altogether. Personally I'd use a sanding disc on the outboard end of the headstock or a belt sander.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think I'll work on getting to do it by hand. A user said in another thread that I'd need a way to sharpen my gouges and chisels for woodturning, would I not be able to do these by hand as wel or do they require a machine too?

Bench tools are typically made from carbon steel (relatively soft) and can be hand sharpened. Turning tools are typically High Speed Steel (nearly as hard as tungsten Carbide) plus they're a plethora of different and complex shapes (deep fluted bowl gouges) with a range of different grind options depending on preference so its just not practical to do them by hand. All turners have at least a dry grinder, some use wet grinders, some use linishers (sanding belt based). Many use jigs to help keep a consistent facet on the bevel.

Because of the forces exerted on the edge of a tool being constantly smacked by wood spinning at fast speeds, the sharpness goes fairly quickly. Hence the need for a sharpening setup is critical to successful turning. It's every bit as important as the lathe and tools in fact as either are useless without it. Most sharpening stations are literally next to the lathe so you can turn through 90 degrees, give the chisel a tickle, get back on the lathe.

 

[Dino]

Makes sense. I assume I'd be able to use the bench grinder as part of that set up?

 

[RobinBHM]

Its all about the bevels, maybe you need a single bevel with double or multi bevel perhaps with a micro bevel or two.

and then there's the burr to consider..........

 

[Dino]

haha! This is going to be fun.

 

[Rhossydd]

I assume I'd be able to use the bench grinder as part of that set up?

Yes, a standard bench grinder is fine for turning tools, and is pretty much what most turners use (especially those with limited budgets).
It's simple to make a jig that always presents the tool to the grinder wheel at the same angle every time to make repeatable sharpening easy and leave one less thing to worry about when you're starting out.

 

[Yorkshire Sam]

I've recently bought a used spokeshave and hand plane, the first I've ever used, as well as some used chisels.

I'm looking for some sharpening tips as well as some general usage tips as when I cut with them they are not taking the wood off "cleanly" - the shavings are tearing off rather than being shaven off.

Am I sharpening at the wrong angle? Am I not using a high enough grit? (I have a 600 grit diamond sharpening stone).

Thanks.

If it helps any .. I am too a recent beginner and took advice from this forum too. I tried several methods without going overboard on gadgets etc. I read in one of the posts something that struck a cord ... something like 'craftsmen have been using a stone in a box for decades ...' and stuck with that and practiced it, sometimes got quite frustrated, thought Id never get the hang of this ... but I did and now I can sharpen chisels, plane blades and spokeshaves quite easily and wondered what was all the fuss about. I am no craftsman, artisan or trained wood worker but I get that satisfied feeling when I can plane or pare a piece of wood and also feel a little smug when I think I now know when a chisel needs sharpening when before I would have thought it would have done. Keep with it ... it comes.

 

[Jacob]

If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other. It's very strange that people have convinced themselves (wrongly) that one is possible and the other is not. Jig mania spreading like a virus.
I'd say the sharpening is much easier than the turning. You don't need jigs.

 

[Rhossydd]

If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool.

Which is fine if you can do that, but when starting out those skills are unlikely to be in place. Why make beginners lives harder by suggesting they have to learn two skills ? Especially if not getting sharpening correct makes the second task of turning wood much harder.

'Jigs' don't have to expensive or complex, they just have to do the job. My turning sharpening jigs are made of scrap wood and cost nothing and building them took very little time indeed. For that tiny bit of effort I can reliably sharpen gouges and scrapers easily, reliably and fast. That in turn means I work with sharper tools that give better results more easily, which helped me learn the craft quicker.

I can sharpen by hand now, but it's just easier to use the jigs for the tools that fit them.
I don't feel any need to make life harder for myself and wouldn't suggest anything that makes lifer more difficult to novices either.

 

[Spindle]

If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other.

Hi

I disagree - when a tool is used in turning it's effect is immediately apparent and can be adjusted accordingly unlike applying a turning tool to a grinding wheel where the effect is hidden until the tool is turned over to allow observation of the bevel.

I'd advise anyone starting out in woodturning to use some form of jig to allow repeatable, single bevel grinds to be produced and thus remove one of the variables encountered when learning to turn.

Regards Mick

 

[Jacob]

If you can put a turning tool to a piece of wood and produce a controlled precise shape freehand you can put that same tool to your grinding medium and do the same to the tool. One is almost a mirror of the other.

Hi

I disagree - when a tool is used in turning it's effect is immediately apparent and can be adjusted accordingly unlike applying a turning tool to a grinding wheel where the effect is hidden until the tool is turned over to allow observation of the bevel.

The same applies if you use a jig.
You soon get the hang of it after a few goes. You can see the edge itself and it doesn't take much brain power to guess what's happening out of sight

I'd advise anyone starting out in woodturning to use some form of jig to allow repeatable, single bevel grinds to be produced and thus remove one of the variables encountered when learning to turn.

Regards Mick

But the jigs themselves are so variable and involve a learning curve and time spent making them.
Why bother? Nobody used them in the past. Jigs don't feature in old turning books. It's easier without.
An absolute beginner might need some reference points I suppose, a few books, photos of your tool edges before you start hacking at them etc

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Jacob......has the word "progress" ever permeated that oh so traditional mind of yours?

They didn't used to use motor cars either.....do you own one?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Anyway....to the OP....as I said in the 2nd post of this thread....sharpening threads have a tendency to polarise the community into those for or against the technology deployed in sharpening.

 

[Jacob]

A copy lathe is "progress" too. Why struggle without?
I don't think it is progress to deskill these crafts. Quite the opposite - it's craft in decline.

 

[Spindle]

Jacob......has the word "progress" ever permeated that oh so traditional mind of yours?

Hush - I'm pretty sure I'm correct in the fact that Jacob, in the past, has admitted to owning and liking a Sorby Pro Edge - Still I suppose he could have removed the tool rest from that and any grinders he has - after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll:

Regards Mick

 

[Jacob]

...- after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll:

Regards Mick

No it isn't - it's a tool rest. It's in the name - look closely, there are two words; TOOL and REST.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Just to balance out the argument with sensible reasons why there is a genuine place for technology, especially in turning. In the early days of hand sharpening the harder, more exotic alloys of steel weren't readily available. Carbon steel tools are soft enough to be hand sharpened, whereas HSS is a lot tougher to remove steel from.

The availability of cheap electronics and tooling has a huge part to play in the access of what was once confined to the industrial only setting.

The complex geometries of for example deep fluted bowl gouges are plain and simple NOT easy to do freehand, and that technique is NOT the same as presenting the tool to turning wood because in oder to sharpen the bevel evenly you need to swing the tool in a near 180 deg arc against the grinder. That is simply not an easy skill for a novice to learn any more then skew use is "easy".

There is a perfectly reasonable and rightful place for jig technology in modern wood working and to continually refute it as though its the devil at work or just a waste of money is futile and frankly rather ignorant. Why not just accept (gracefully) that a CHOICE exists and folks are free to choose one way or another and there isn't any need to continue banging on about one particular method being superior to another, what a waste of bloody oxygen!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

A copy lathe is "progress" too. Why struggle without?
I don't think it is progress to deskill these crafts. Quite the opposite - it's craft in decline.

Do you think that the skill of the craft of turning is more or less widely practised now in 2014 than it was in say 1970?

 

[Rhossydd]

But the jigs themselves are so variable and involve a learning curve and time spent making them.

The only variability in the one I pictured above is the wear on the wood and wheel. The ear on the wooden part is neglibible and the change the wheel diameter is so slow you won't notice it until you've done a huge amount of tool sharpening.
Learning curve ? Place tool on jig > push gently onto rotating grinding wheel > rotate tool > remove, how hard was that ?
Time spent making it ? about an hour. How long did you have to work to pay for your Sorby Pro edge ? 10 hours at £25/hr ?

Jigs don't feature in old turning books.

Nor did electric motors or high speed steel tools, but most people use them now. It's called progress.

What's more of a puzzle is why you seem to make such an effort to make beginner's journeys into woodwork so much more difficult than it needs to be.

 

[Spindle]

No it isn't - it's a tool rest. It's in the name - look closely, there are two words; TOOL and REST.

Ahh I see:

Tool rest

Jig

:roll: :lol: :lol:

Mick