Hand tool: sharpening and general use questions

[Random Orbital Bob]

...- after all that tool rest is a jig isn't it :roll: :roll:

Regards Mick

No it isn't - it's a tool rest. It's in the name - look closely, there are two words; TOOL and REST.

Wrong.

The Sorby pro-edge tool rest is fixed at repeatable known angles from the belt which range from about 15 deg for a skew to 80 deg for a scraper. That's the whole point of the dam thing! Those repeatable angles (in combination with other bits of technology that help the tool stay straight and/or rotate evenly) allow the user to consistently repeat the angle at which they grind the bevel of their chosen edge. To deny that the pro-edge rest isn't a jig is laughable

 

[caroleb]

The 64,000 dollar question is of course "What's right for you"?

=D>

The point of sticking with what you have is that simple freehand sharpening is a very valuable basic skill, which every beginner should get to grips with from the start.

also =D>

a standard bench grinder is fine for turning tools, and is pretty much what most turners use

another =D>

don't delve too much into the sharpening theory. Practice is much more important.

and =D>

but ..

haha! This is going to be fun.

- to start with, yes, but give it a while...........

Anyway, the skill here is to be able to sift through all the information you have been given and glean the most you can from it. Doubtless the answers are all here, but there are some politics to be avoided too. There is no 'right' way. Only your way. You will find it, the truth is you cannot do without it. I am not even sure it is teachable (is that a word?) but found through experience. Dive in and enjoy it- surely that's the important thing?

Hope this helps. I have no wish to offend anyone. But a tool-rest (see what I did there?) is a bit like a jig, isn't it? :evil:

Caz

 

[KevM]

I've recently bought a used spokeshave and hand plane, the first I've ever used, as well as some used chisels.

I'm looking for some sharpening tips as well as some general usage tips as when I cut with them they are not taking the wood off "cleanly" - the shavings are tearing off rather than being shaven off.

Am I sharpening at the wrong angle? Am I not using a high enough grit? (I have a 600 grit diamond sharpening stone).

Thanks.

Regardless of sharpening style a few things have helped me.
- A marker pen to mark the edge to be sharpened
- A good light to work in
- A x10 pocket lens to inspect the sharpened edge and see what's been removed

The marker pen and pocket lens quickly become redundant, but I found they helped me to understand what I was actually doing in my sharpening process. I paid good money for that steel - the less I have to remove the better.
What's sharp enough rather depends on what you're doing; for carving tools an easy slice across end grain that leaves a burnished finish is a pretty good indication that I should stop faffing with sharpening and get back to the job in hand.

 

[Jacob]

Call a tool rest a jig if you like but I think of these sorts of things as jigs
http://www.axminster.co.uk/storme-woodt ... ing-system
http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/

 

[Spindle]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ninth one down on the Tormek link


:wink:

 

[Jacob]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ninth one down on the Tormek link


:wink:

£70. Who needs it? A tool maker perhaps, but a turner would do it quicker and easier freehand on a tool rest, or hand as tool rest.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

Did you misunderstand on purpose :wink:

This is item nine on the Tormek link

http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/svd110/index.php

The item you linked is actually the jig / tool rest I, (and I expect other turners), use the most - why ever would I bother to learn to free hand fingernail profiles when I have a perfectly good system that ensures efficiency and repeatability.

Regards Mick

 

[Paul Chapman]

Who needs it?

Anyone who wants speed, accuracy and repeatability. I reckon the Tormek and its jigs are great. Can't understand why you're such a Luddite when it comes to grinding and honing, Jacob.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Actually Jacob, I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I asked you to answer the question: Do you believe the skill of wood turning has got less or more since 1970? You see, your continual battle cry is that by moving away from pure freehand approaches the risk is that the craft is "de-skilled".

If you were to plot lathe sales from 1930 to 1970 versus lathe sales from 1970 to date...I bet they'd tell an interesting story about the proliferation of the skill of turning as a global phenomena. Whilst not having that data I would bet my right arm that the skill of wood turning has undergone exponential growth since 1970 and further, that that growth is directly matched to the growth and price composition of lathe availability. In other words as the technology through mass production, computerisation and cheap far eastern labour has brought the tools within the grasp of household budgets, the "craft" has exploded.

Now I know what you'll say next: Just because all those new folks are doing it doesn't mean they're any good, doesn't mean they have any "skill".

Well, I would argue the standard of wood turning skill out there is pretty dam good. I also don't believe sharpening skill has any relation whatsoever with wood turning skill. Practice is the mother of skill and that means on the lathe. So any procedure that gets the turner in front of the lathe for as long as possible is HELPING the skill of the craft and not the opposite. Sharp tools are what aid the skill of the craft, not sharpening skill. Anything which delivers sharp tools, preferably as fast as possible is the optimum driver for upskilling the craft of wood turning.

Anyway, I promised myself I wouldn't bite....and what goes and bloody well happens!!!

 

[Woodmonkey]

I agree Bob, the turning is the craft, the sharpening is a by-product of the craft, it doesn't matter a jot how you get your chisels sharp as long as they are sharp. I would like to see anyone sharpen an HSS deep fluted bowl gouge without some sort of jig (call it a tool rest if you like it's still a jig)

 

[charvercarver]

Just to add, if you're going into carving as well as turning I highly reccomend learning to free hand sharpen. Apparently you can get jigs for the tormek, but considering how often you need to touch up your gouges on a strop anyway I don't think it would prove to be much of a convenience.

 

[Dino]

I've already done a bit of hand carving, sharpening knives I am fine with it's just getting the angle right on the chisels and planes that I seem to have a problem with but that's very new to me in any case. From the advice here it just seems that I need more practise which I would agree with. A lot of good information here in any case.

 

[Doug B]

Jig

No that's definitely a tool rest not a jig, I should know, it was mine :shock: so where did the photo come from ?

 

[Spindle]

so where did the photo come from ?

Hi

Google images - you must have uploaded it at some point.

Served the point well though as responses now identify the two examples as both jigs and toolrests. To me they're both jigs but it's really only down to semantics :wink:

Regards Mick

 

[Jacob]

so where did the photo come from ?

Hi

Google images - you must have uploaded it at some point.

Served the point well though as responses now identify the two examples as both jigs and toolrests. To me they're both jigs but it's really only down to semantics :wink:

Regards Mick

A tool rest is a tool rest. Doug's and that tormek thing are both tool rests. A jig holds things. Fuzzy area in between but it's not semantics. e.g. That wolverine thing is an in-betweeny but I'd call it a jig myself.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?

 

[Jacob]

And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?

As a trade craft it's virtually disappeared. Hardly anything is turned commercially as in the old days when it was massive. It still flourishes on the fringe of arts n crafts (hollow forms/urns :lol: ) and amateur hobby woodwork (nothing wrong with amateur woodwork this isn't a criticism).
And of course to suit the amateur market the gadget salesmen have got in there in a big way. A lot of sales depend on persuading people that sharpening is difficult - "de-skilling" in a word. It's kind of self fulfilling - many of the gadgets promise much but do actually make sharpening more difficult, not to mention more expensive.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

And Jacob, what about the point of "de-skilling" the craft?

As a trade craft it's virtually disappeared. Hardly anything is turned commercially as in the old days when it was massive. It still flourishes on the fringe of arts n crafts (hollow forms/urns :lol: ) and amateur hobby woodwork (nothing wrong with amateur woodwork this isn't a criticism).
And of course to suit the amateur market the gadget salesmen have got in there in a big way. A lot of sales depend on persuading people that sharpening is difficult - "de-skilling" in a word. It's kind of self fulfilling - many of the gadgets promise much but do actually make sharpening more difficult, not to mention more expensive.

I see your point, you're documenting the shift away from the "trade" of turning to a generally non professional mode. I don't dis-agree with that, its clearly happened and has been mirrored in many other industries, the text book classic being typography. Desk top publishing completely decimated the professional typesetter in about 10 years flat. And I guess that kind of "progress" can be seen as rather sad because it undermines the value of a particular job type across an entire industry. For the people involved, that's a pretty hard position to find yourself in, especially if you're getting on a bit.

But I'm not sure that's true in the case of turning, but I may be wrong. The professional end of turning was to a large degree supplying the building and furniture industry with spindles for stair's, chairs, cricket stumps, kitchen items etc. I guess there were bowls too and other face grained work but the work was to some extent, large batches of repeat items which made up a component of a bigger system? Of course there would still be commissions for incredible work from large budgets, royalty etc but that still holds true today. Wouldn't the bulk of production have been fairly narrow in design scope? Beads, coves, pommels etc. Sure they take skill to do, in particular they take skill to repeat accurately by hand but the scope is narrow.

With the birth of cheap tooling and access, the arts and crafts switch has exploded in terms of the scope of design. No longer restricted by a clients boring brief for 8000 stair spindles and the odd newel post, incredible forms have started appearing: Huge natural edge forms, hollow vessels almost as big as the turner, bowls out of the sides of branch crotches, multi centre pieces, segmented pieces, a huge variety in colour, shape and texture. Surely it makes sense to suppose that the skill necessary to produce this veritable cornucopia of variety has evolved beyond the mastering of the humble table leg?

So I would argue the industry has upskilled BECAUSE of the arts and crafts growth and in spite of the demise of the trade (regrettable though I agree that is for the people concerned).

And by the way...this has nothing to do with sharpening jigs

 

[Lons]

Actually Jacob, I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I asked you to answer the question: Do you believe the skill of wood turning has got less or more since 1970? You see, your continual battle cry is that by moving away from pure freehand approaches the risk is that the craft is "de-skilled".

If you were to plot lathe sales from 1930 to 1970 versus lathe sales from 1970 to date...I bet they'd tell an interesting story about the proliferation of the skill of turning as a global phenomena. Whilst not having that data I would bet my right arm that the skill of wood turning has undergone exponential growth since 1970 and further, that that growth is directly matched to the growth and price composition of lathe availability. In other words as the technology through mass production, computerisation and cheap far eastern labour has brought the tools within the grasp of household budgets, the "craft" has exploded.

Now I know what you'll say next: Just because all those new folks are doing it doesn't mean they're any good, doesn't mean they have any "skill".

Well, I would argue the standard of wood turning skill out there is pretty dam good. I also don't believe sharpening skill has any relation whatsoever with wood turning skill. Practice is the mother of skill and that means on the lathe. So any procedure that gets the turner in front of the lathe for as long as possible is HELPING the skill of the craft and not the opposite. Sharp tools are what aid the skill of the craft, not sharpening skill. Anything which delivers sharp tools, preferably as fast as possible is the optimum driver for upskilling the craft of wood turning.

Anyway, I promised myself I wouldn't bite....and what goes and bloody well happens!!!

Very well put Bob =D> =D>

Doesn't make any difference as you won't get a sensible unbiased answer from the "master sharpener" who of course has personally tested every jig and gadget that he so vehemently condems. Stick someone in a dark hole for long enough and they'll eventually lose their vision.

I've turned most of my life since the age of 13 but just come back to it after a 15 year gap, I'm also a woodcarver and general woodworker. I learned to sharpen with oilstones at school, and of course it's a skill but only a means to an end.
Every woodworker has to be able to keep his tools sharp and how he does that is purely his decision based on how much he is prepared to spend in both money and time.
Personally, I don't enjoy sharpening, consider it as "down time" and use the fastest and most effective method at my disposal dependant on the tool and the work to hand as well as of course my own ability. That can be Tormek, bench grinder, oil / water diamond stone or strop. If that labels ma a Philistine then so what, I don't give a monkeys :wink: God forgive me but I even use throway handsaws, metal rather than wooden planes and a lathe with a motor :roll:

Not everyone has the will or skill to sharpen a chisel freehand in 5 seconds like it seems Jacob can. Not everyone wants to or can be bothered to spend the time trying either and that includes me. If it works for you Jacob that's great but don't unilaterally decry orther folks methods just because you don't agree.

Bob

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Very well put Bob =D> =D>

Doesn't make any difference as you won't get a sensible unbiased answer from the "master sharpener" who of course has personally tested every jig and gadget that he so vehemently condems. Stick someone in a dark hole for long enough and they'll eventually lose their vision.

Bob

I've come to learn that of late! But in this case I wanted (for some reason I cant fathom) to logically and reasonably refute the contention that sharpening by hand has anything whatever to do with the skill of wood turning. The skill of wood turning is served by sharp tools, not by their delivery vehicle.

Out of curiosity Jacob, are you a turner?