Hand cut dovetails in sapele

[Trafalgar]

Like a pen, on the metal shank (think quill pen) for dovetails; by the wooden 'handle' if needing to mark deep for some other operation -- deep drawbores or something like that.

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry. This was a case where the wheel need not have been re-invented.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Like a pen, on the metal shank (think quill pen) for dovetails; by the wooden 'handle' if needing to mark deep for some other operation -- deep drawbores or something like that.

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry. This was a case where the wheel need not have been re-invented.

In your dreams, Charles .... :lol: :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

Whatever Derek. The awl in your photo is simply too thick where it counts. It's also too short. It's a leather punch. It's not a woodworking marking awl. Putting a pretty, turned handle on it does not make it so.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Charles, a birdcage awl is used for making holes (for screws, etc) ..

See how it is designed and held?

A scratch awl is used for a different purpose. It is used for marking. But the traditional scratch awl is shaped more like a tool used for making a hole. My scratch awl design is intended to be used like a pencil. It is used to trace around objects. It is used to mark a dimension (a dot from this tool is MUCH more accurate than a scratched line from a knife or from a pencil). It is not intended to be used inside a dovetail if marking pins from tails, although it could be used the other way around. And, finally, the thickness of the shaft is irrelevant. What is relevant is the sharpness of the point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

Derek, the Crown is a marking awl for making fine lines and very small ticks that won't show on a finished piece after a light cleaning off. They won't follow grain very readily which makes them handy for those having trouble knifing out dovetails. There were many different awls made for many different purposes, most of which have been relegated to history. I have a stout Stanley awl (really a leather tool) used for punching a slightly deeper hole. Gimlets come in for making screw starter holes and other uses. I don't own a birdcage awl and don't see the need for one given the Crown, the Stanley, and the three or four gimlets I own, and frankly even this feels a bit 'overtooled.'

To the OP who might want to make a dovetail joint with very narrow pins: cut them pins first, and use whatever you have to mark the tails. A 5H or harder pencil sharpened to a chisel point can even be made to work. You don't need a boutique awl or knife, tape, etc. to make the joint. If you want to do them tails first and need a little higher contrast on darker woods, then chalk the endgrain on the pin piece and then mark out.

Toodles... going for a bike ride.....

 

[bugbear]

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry.

So explain the reasons you believe make the traditional design superior. "Traditional is best" is not an explanation, or even an argument. It's merely an assertion.

BugBear

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek, the Crown is a marking awl for making fine lines ..

Charles, so does a marking knife with a thin blade, such as pictured earlier.

and very small ticks that won't show on a finished piece after a light cleaning off.

No quibble from me.

They won't follow grain very readily which makes them handy for those having trouble knifing out dovetails.

As I pointed out earlier, the correct way to use a marking knife with the grain is to start with very light strokes. It is exactly the same when using a cutting gauge along the grain (as when marking mortices).

To the OP who might want to make a dovetail joint with very narrow pins: cut them pins first, and use whatever you have to mark the tails.

That is indeed a viable alternative. But we better not debate tails vs pins first ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry.

So explain the reasons you believe make the traditional design superior. "Traditional is best" is not an explanation, or even an argument. It's merely an assertion.

BugBear

It's a statement of likelihood, unless something wasn't available due to technology.

There is little that's new that's practically or materially superior, but a lot that is going the wrong direction.

 

[D_W]

Derek, the Crown is a marking awl for making fine lines and very small ticks that won't show on a finished piece after a light cleaning off. They won't follow grain very readily which makes them handy for those having trouble knifing out dovetails. There were many different awls made for many different purposes, most of which have been relegated to history. I have a stout Stanley awl (really a leather tool) used for punching a slightly deeper hole. Gimlets come in for making screw starter holes and other uses. I don't own a birdcage awl and don't see the need for one given the Crown, the Stanley, and the three or four gimlets I own, and frankly even this feels a bit 'overtooled.'

To the OP who might want to make a dovetail joint with very narrow pins: cut them pins first, and use whatever you have to mark the tails. A 5H or harder pencil sharpened to a chisel point can even be made to work. You don't need a boutique awl or knife, tape, etc. to make the joint. If you want to do them tails first and need a little higher contrast on darker woods, then chalk the endgrain on the pin piece and then mark out.

Toodles... going for a bike ride.....

Charlie, I hate to agree with you, but I think anyone who cut a significant number of those tiny pins would soon stop trying to push water upstream with a needle and adopt a pins first method.

Any quibbles with changing method would go away within very few sets, and anything shy of a grease pencil would mark them just fine.

 

[Jacob]

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry.

So explain the reasons you believe make the traditional design superior. "Traditional is best" is not an explanation, or even an argument. It's merely an assertion.

BugBear

No it is a fact.
This is a sweeping generalisation but; the whole point and strength of 'traditional' design and construction is that it tends to evolve, through the hands of many people doing roughly the same thing, faced with the same problems, copying one another, picking up others' improvements and modifications, tending to settle on what everybody agrees (albeit unspoken) is the best solution. It's a tendency - the result isn't guaranteed and may carry on evolving. On the other hand may fall into disuse and be forgotten.
I started realising this with one of my first jobs - as a building labourer. This was so long ago that small diggers, JCBs and the like were almost unknown and big holes were dug by hand. I spent a lot of time with a pick, shovel and barrow and soon began to realise that they were superbly designed for the job even though no named designer had ever been near them as far as I know. This same thing can be found everywhere - beautifully made and highly functional hand tools etc for many trades, or trappings for horses, carts, buildings, etc. etc.

 

[Trafalgar]

Aha, Jacob! You've identified the next hot market in boutique tools -- picks, shovels, and wheelbarrows!

 

[Trafalgar]

Derek, the Crown is a marking awl for making fine lines and very small ticks that won't show on a finished piece after a light cleaning off. They won't follow grain very readily which makes them handy for those having trouble knifing out dovetails. There were many different awls made for many different purposes, most of which have been relegated to history. I have a stout Stanley awl (really a leather tool) used for punching a slightly deeper hole. Gimlets come in for making screw starter holes and other uses. I don't own a birdcage awl and don't see the need for one given the Crown, the Stanley, and the three or four gimlets I own, and frankly even this feels a bit 'overtooled.'

To the OP who might want to make a dovetail joint with very narrow pins: cut them pins first, and use whatever you have to mark the tails. A 5H or harder pencil sharpened to a chisel point can even be made to work. You don't need a boutique awl or knife, tape, etc. to make the joint. If you want to do them tails first and need a little higher contrast on darker woods, then chalk the endgrain on the pin piece and then mark out.

Toodles... going for a bike ride.....

Charlie, I hate to agree with you, but I think anyone who cut a significant number of those tiny pins would soon stop trying to push water upstream with a needle and adopt a pins first method.

Any quibbles with changing method would go away within very few sets, and anything shy of a grease pencil would mark them just fine.

You could even mark them with Derek's leather awl... :wink:

 

[Trafalgar]

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry.

So explain the reasons you believe make the traditional design superior. "Traditional is best" is not an explanation, or even an argument. It's merely an assertion.

BugBear

Because it's long, thin and can be held at its bulbous end, or like a pen near the business end. A leather awl is short and thick because it is often punched THROUGH the material as well as being used to make marks on it. A woodworking marking awl is not made for this sort of robust usage. The thin end and point are also thinner than the hash marks on a folding rule for reasons one hopes are obvious.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Piffle Do you actually use these tools? :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

Nope, never! :roll:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

The Crown design is absolutely superior because it's absolutely a faithful copy of a traditional marking awl. It's that simple. Sorry.

So explain the reasons you believe make the traditional design superior. "Traditional is best" is not an explanation, or even an argument. It's merely an assertion.

BugBear

No it is a fact.
This is a sweeping generalisation but; the whole point and strength of 'traditional' design and construction is that it tends to evolve, through the hands of many people doing roughly the same thing, faced with the same problems, copying one another, picking up others' improvements and modifications, tending to settle on what everybody agrees (albeit unspoken) is the best solution. It's a tendency - the result isn't guaranteed and may carry on evolving. On the other hand may fall into disuse and be forgotten.

You misunderstand.

Even if it is accepted as an axiom that traditional tools are highly evolved (it's not a very controversial or interesting viewpoint) this tells us nothing about WHY an individual tool is the way it is, or HOW to use it to best advantage.

And if the circumstances of the use of the tool change beyond the context in which it evolved, it might be a dodo...

Superbly evolved for its circumstances, until rats chances the circumstances.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...

Even if it is accepted as an axiom that traditional tools are highly evolved (it's not a very controversial or interesting viewpoint) this tells us nothing about WHY an individual tool is the way it is, or HOW to use it to best advantage....r

Generally this becomes apparent when you try to use the tool in question. You should try it some time!

 

[Trafalgar]

Bugbear, why do you think a jointer plane is long? You seem to be baffled by the few varieties of awl still around, but take for granted (?) the differences in other tools. It doesn't make sense.

I have a Stanley No. 7 Hurwood that has a steel strike button and is thick in section, then there's the Crown. The contrast, of course, at least puts one on notice that SOMETHING is up. If not, they'd all be the same.

 

[G S Haydon]

Derek's tools are going to be made and suit his needs well, there can be little debate about that. It's likely it'll work very well for others too.

Bugbear, on the broader point of the how, why is now unable to be discussed properly. There just aren't the required number, of mainly skilled professional and some skilled amateurs to be able to approve it's design by constant application. Having a handful of people theorising about why a new awl, might be better than another, is interesting, but is unlikely to reach a conclusion. The last time there was enough volume of skilled workers to approve much ended roughly by WW2, and at that point the people who could approve in volume were already in decline.

I'm happy to work on the assumption, that the evolved forms of hand tools, from the period where hand tools were dominant, are likely to be the best for most people. As would be the methods used during those times when using them. I find it unlikely than any forum member would have the experience to redefine tool use and approve progress in any way. As others have alluded to, practical application is key. If you want to find out for yourself, buy them both, report back! However don't expect everyone to agree with you for the reasons outlined in the paragraph above.